Hello everyone this is adam meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to this week in bitcoin today is August the 3rd 2018 strong hand deferral of gratification uncopyable all right I am offended by selling bitcoin I hope all of you had a strong hand this week I'm coming from Boise Idaho now and we have three guests who've never been on the show before but you all know them because I talk about them I linked to their tweets always check out the links below I link to all these guys below today to please um they are Gary Batsuit and rod mah mood of and Nick Bhatia and you're gonna hear from them in one second but I want to first read a tweet because these dudes are experts in a lot of different things but first we got a we got a hit on the current events right now and here's a tweet from FinTech Frank he says a year ago executives that the major stock exchanges would describe crypto as a fad dangerous and nothing they were taught taking seriously today ice which is the intercontinental exchange which is I guess owns New York Stock Exchange announced a project with Microsoft and Starbucks to create a digital asset ecosystem sounds like a buzz word the term change has been massive and they're calling it bat now a lot of people are saying this is huge news obviously it's involves some traditional institutions that we're all familiar with we'll start with more on what what do you think about all this what is this an important earth-shattering thing like some people are saying well even though the whole thing does seem kind of mercenary versus sort of the more missionary ethos of cryptocurrencies and sort of decentralized systems in general I think like in the long run like this is like generally bullish for Bitcoin and like the Starbucks integration with their 15 million user mobile pay community in theory like this can have similar implications of an ETF and together in conjunction with NYSC serving essentially as the lycra warehouse or a custodian it should get like a very big distribution effect in the long run as well and also it would maintain to be much greater divisibility versus some of the like recently proposed ETFs which have like much bigger minimums for investment and it's also like physically settled versus cash I generally think like these things are pretty bullish that being said despite how in my view relatively bullish these announcements are the fact that mark that essentially barely moved upwards on this news confirms my bearish in the short term and like don't get me wrong like you will not find a more intense long-term Bitcoin Bowl but I think in the short term we might see some lower levels in the next couple of weeks and months when I see an announcement like this I mean obviously I it's got some big names in it but then it's something to me it almost seems like one big buzzword when they start chatting about digital asset ecosystem what do they even mean by digital asset ecosystem do you think rod um I guess it seems like they are it's a very ambitious project and they want to do a little bit of everything but as I've said in general I think these kinds of traditional financial institutions getting involved is very very bullish for ecosystem as a whole and just like the tweet said as early as a year two years ago they were laughing at cryptocurrencies and Bitcoin but now they're essentially like diving head in at first and so I think we will see more and more our institutions exchanges financial intermediaries slowly dip their toes into crypto more and more and this will facilitate sort of my longer ongoing thesis I think like Bitcoin will become will become a store of value for Millennials 8 + 2 I think in the coming years high net worth and ultra high net worth individuals will be putting from anywhere from zero point two to five percent of their net worth into baskets of blue chip cryptocurrencies and I think these kinds of announcements are facilitating this I love to hear that and we are going to be talking about your evolution of Bitcoin the financial evolution of Bitcoin a little later on you've just given everybody a preview but everybody should already be familiar with it because I have linked to his chart in the links below in past videos found that like button if you like me connecting all this stuff together okay now we got Gary here what do you what do you think about this in NASA you are from a traditional finance background is this it's just bigger than the EGF I mean how do you interpret all this well from a training perspective I think it's it's a pretty big deal like right now the technology behind all these exchanges is kind of a joke from like a professional training standpoint so having somebody with like a strong tech infrastructure like ice come in and provide a platform is gonna gonna bring a lot of liquidity to the table I also think like in terms one of the problems with the ETF is they're concerned about lack of surveillance lack of a regulated spot exchange this I mean this will basically solve that so to the extent that any TF gets approved I bet it would be something it would only come after something like this actually gets off the ground nice timing the yeah I like that Nick what do you what do you think about all this I think that any large institution that's coming in with any sort of custodial angle is a big deal and important for the ecosystem to evolve so I wouldn't put too much weight on any one announcement it's more the fact that you have an why is he involved ice CME and CBOE are both involved now Northern Trust just announced that they're going to be offering custodian type services we're not exactly sure what they're announcing Citigroup recently announced that they're gonna get involved they used the word crypto but the details were pretty thin there you have Goldman Sachs starting a trading desk so they're going to be involved in the trafficking I don't know about the custodianship as much but they're going to be involved in the trafficking so you see institution after institution announced their involvement to what degree are they going to be involved to what degree are they going to be using real Bitcoin versus futures or other financial instrument derivatives some of the ETFs are going to be using physical Bitcoin where they're gonna store it in a trust and others are going to be using futures contracts only so we don't know to what degree all these institutions are going to touch real Bitcoin but the bottom line is that the adoption is happening one step at a time well you know you guys have maybe a little bit more happier about this announcement I was thinking it was more of this the buzzword you know click Beatty type of thing and this is substance behind this this could this could you know I guess the markets III think you said that the MU rod said that you know the markets weren't reacting this you know the markets are made up of a lot of like nineteen year old kids though you know that just want to like train like coin and Bitcoin aetherium back and forth so I think it just shows that they're just not paying much attention who knows okay let's move on to your everybody's breadbasket here but everybody likes to talk about each of these guys have you know I I like certain things they've tweeted about and one thing that Gary you said at one point because you you again coming from a background where you've dealt with a lot of traditional assets bitcoins biggest selling point to institutions Bitcoin returns are not very correlated with other asset classes and I like that a lot if you could elaborate on that if you want to talk a little bit more about that also going back to the ETF if you have any uh any thoughts on the progress of that and what what your trip your friends in the traditional markets in finance or think about that so I guess two different things there sure yeah I mean most of my time has been spent on trading but I know that about like what asset alligators look at and I mean this kind of reminds me of of the when commodities kind of became a thing and came into their own as an asset class and everyone was kind of talking about their diversification properties like you know why buy silver well it moves differently than all the other stuff in our portfolio and so that makes the Sharpe go up sometimes so it's the same with Bitcoin and I think it's also you know people call it perhaps like a gold replacement and it's interesting because so far it's been behaving pretty differently from gold like cold seems to be kind of like a risk-on risk-off hedge so like when people are kind of panicking a lot of money can go into gold and Treasuries Bitcoin moves a little bit weird it almost seems like it's kind of like a like a hedge against like specific countries having instability or capital controls coming on and off so it's like a new type of exposure that that you can get access to so I think once it matures a bit more you know traditional asset allocators will be interested in putting of you know maybe half a percent to two percent of their portfolio into Bitcoin and maybe a few other big coins I have a little bit I guess the question kind of it goes off of this in terms of Bitcoin maturing and attracting interest of all sorts of people do you see it as a store of value yet and if you don't do it when do you see that being more accepted in the traditional ones well I think it's a store of value for us that I think bitcoins awesome and the next big thing I think for most people like when I asked my friends were a little bit you know they think it's worthless and doesn't have any inherent value and therefore he's like a very forced work value so I think a lot of that just comes with time so give it another five or ten years have it the unregulated exchanges have significant liquidity and volume on those exchanges and then it you know eventually it becomes obvious that it's it's not gonna go to zero and it's not worthless and yeah over time it becomes seen as a store of value okay we're gonna we're gonna get to moon rod in a second was he's gonna have a lot to say about that the progress of the financial maturity of Bitcoin but I want to get a UH I want to go to Nick first here what what do you feel about the store value aspect of Bitcoin at this point in time and also go any any thoughts on it being an uncorrelated asset sure I'll start with the correlation first now I think that we can we can measure correlation on different time horizons so we can look at you know an annual basis what did a few assets return versus each other we can look at daily returns so I do think that bitcoin is not very correlated to other asset classes on longer term time horizons but I do stare at intraday price action of different markets on a daily basis and the one thing I see with Bitcoin is that it does not tick with the other markets so you can see on any given day certain currencies US Treasuries stock markets and oil for example all trade tick for tick together in one direction now that doesn't always happen all the time every day but there are times you know quite often where these asset classes are actually trading on top of each other because they're all controlled by or they're dominated by algorithmic programming program programmable trading and Bitcoin does not seem to move on a tick by tick basis with these other asset classes that tells me that bitcoin is an independent asset class it's separate from the financial system and the liquidity in the direction the market is moving is completely independent of all these other markets so I really think that that is interesting about Bitcoin from you know the very short-term correlation perspective now I do also agree that it is an uncorrelated asset because it you know Bitcoin has gone up so much and you look at every other asset class and they don't have those type of boom and bust cycles as often as Bitcoin does Bitcoin seems to you know skyrocket in the crash and skyrocket and crash and other markets like stocks or bonds are not moving and you know anywhere close of that kind of volatility all right they're very good and the store value aspect of a Bitcoin you know we're combining two different things here store value I mean I think store value is you know a relative subjective type of thing you know to those of us who understand what bitcoin is and value its digital scarce properties and it's amazing protocol and improving protocol yeah it's gonna be a store value to those people because they have a longer term time horizon and they know what Bitcoin can become in the future and to others that don't necessarily understand bitcoins properties they're not gonna see it as a store value so that you know it is subjective I'm leading up to Mourad for this I'm bringing up these things because broad you wrote monetary evolution of Bitcoin and on your chart Bitcoin has in its monetary evolution it hasn't hit the store value stage yet and I hope I'm not misinterpreting anything can can you give us a little insight on into your monetary evolution of Bitcoin theory and how it pertains the store value and and everything else I'm not retarded yet for sure I would describe Bitcoin at this stage as a scarce digital collectible with with a with a very promising chance of becoming a store of value or in other words I think investing in Bitcoin today is making a bad that three four five years from now it will be a store of value so and Vijay boy a potty safety no moose nick szabo tangentially and and some others have written about this extensively but essentially there are many theories of cryptocurrency value accrual most of them I think are wrong I subscribe to this theory that bitcoin is undergoing monetization and it's moving in in these stages from a collectible to a store of value to eventually a medium of exchange as it gets bigger and the disincentives to spend get reduced and eventually as it gets even more stable it it will and it has a chance to become a unit of account but really stability will be achieved closer to full adoption it's it's it's quite it's quite binary but for pure stability and not versus fiat versus actual goods and services you need very very extensive adoption but versus Fiat Bitcoin will stay volatile for a while and you actually want it to be volatile you want Bitcoin to be volatile preferably upwards you want it to signal to the world that fear is weakening relative to the dollar and the Fiat leak is occurring and I strongly believe that Bitcoin will become a store of value because and I don't even somewhat controversially I don't think that money is a collective fiction I think it's actually I think bitcoin is an objectively better store of value especially if you take a longer-term view just like people say the future is already here it's just not distributed enough yet and to me it's not collected fiction but rather it's social consensus coupled with market and now quickly convert towards the best but due to self-interest and due to self-preservation and I think this will happen alright Gary and Nick which what do you do you guys have something to say about what was just said their commentary of any of any sort that was a deep stop there for all the 20 percenters in straw handers out there this show is is definitely for you guys all the long-term thinkers well I love the evolution of money of framework that Marauder is putting forth it really does have to take this evolution into later stages of maturity and right now it is still is a collectible I mean it it's moving towards a store of value because more and more people are recognizing it as that but but still for us bitcoiners we're just trying to get our hands on this much Bitcoin as possible because we understand that it's limited in supply and that's kind of what is driving you know the adoption for it and it will move that direction through time one Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin people try to get more don't worry about the dollar value of it Gary any thoughts um nothing much dad I mean I agree with with Nick and Mourad I think it's going to take time and I think there's some fundamental properties about the way the system works that make it more attractive than fiat currency in the long run but there's going to be a lot of volatility in between so they get exciting have a strong hand indeed excitement but strong hand people all right now before we go we move on to Nick who is going to talk about the Lightning Network in all its glory I didn't have one little final question from you rod you said eighty in one of your tweets I found it very interesting 85% of VCS are no better than I CEOs that was kind of tongue-in-cheek but I didn't think that safe for a tiny minority of VCS they're actually know what's going on and how this thing works most of them are really flowing into horrible investments horrible tokens horrible I SEOs I actually think most of them know that what they are following in is essentially utter trash but they're just taking advantage of their pre presale discounts and then dumping on retail upon the liquidity points and like I'm just saying obvious things we all know what's happening I do consider it at least slightly unethical but this is just the way things go and is it being going on before long before crypto but yeah I think most VCS don't really understand cryptocurrencies they don't really understand monetary economics a lot of them still think of the of it blockchains as software platforms or blog chains as equity but really first and foremost block chains are money and block chains are monetary systems we're not trying to reinvent Amazon Web Services here we're not trying to reinvent PayPal we're trying to get rid of central banking and we're trying to build a robust fixed monetary system and really both that has the highest potential for return the highest total addressable market and also the highest potential for socio-economic change and I think it will happen in our lifetime and I think it will be beautiful well-said talent like button people make do you have any thoughts on the the VC's view of crypto I don't have much knowledge of that world and I also don't even follow the ico whole space at all because it's not it's not part of what I'm interested in I'm interested in building a Bitcoin so I really I couldn't even name you like a nei SEOs or anything like that so awesome that is awesome I wish everyone was like that unfortunately uh the newer the people are to the space the more they seem to like to ask me about AI CEOs and you know actually more I'd you said well everybody knows you know you said that everybody knows that what the I SEOs were about oh no no the 80 percenters out there they think this stuff is real they think they don't know that 90% of that's why they keep buying all that stuff anyway well let's talk about what the people want to hear about and that is the Lightning Network and that is the Bitcoin risk spectrum lightning networks arrival finally allows us to sign time value to Bitcoin and can begin building bitcoins capital market from first principles alright Nick take it away I mean if traditional finance they're going to is they're gonna want interest rates on on Bitcoin and everything and you think litecoins gonna help I'm not like kung fu lightning networks gonna help out with all this so tell us all about this III think it's so unique and with this other other guests have tried to interpret what you've said in your articles and everything but now we want it straight from the horse's mouth thank you yeah I think that a bitcoins layered approach that it's taking is the perfect approach and that's because I think about gold as an analogy gold in its raw form is you know nuggets out of the ground and the protocol is that it is a element on the periodic table now that is what makes gold consensus it's what atom it is on the periodic table tres mayor talks a lot about it following chemical law so you know that's that's the foundation of Bitcoin now when gold is turned into coins and bars that's another layer of the protocol and the protocol has consensus around what the weights and measures should be and then after that you starts to get into counterparty risk and we're talking about gold certificates where banks and vaults can take deposit of gold and issue certificates and those can act as money but it's not real gold it's another layer of gold and bitcoin is following this approach and lightning network is the first it's the first example of a second layer that is going to be have mass adoption or it's it's having adoption as we speak and it makes Bitcoin usable on a layer above the base chain the base chain is meant to be slow and clunky for a reason it's not intended to be fast confirming because that's not part of the security of Bitcoin bitcoin is final settlement digital scarcity and that takes time and proof of work and that is you know slow clunky and expensive as the criticisms of Bitcoin you know are but they're not criticisms I mean they're not false they are features of the base layer and lightning Network is beautiful because it allows us to use Bitcoin instantly in this very unique payment channel type of way and we don't have to use the base layer until we need to to take final settlement and part of lightning Network now is being able to assess time value so you can make fees from the Bitcoin that you stake to lightning payment channels these fees are income the payment channels the the Bitcoin that you put in the payment channels is your capital and it takes you time to earn those fees these are the three components of interest and we can start to calculate an interest rate now if you don't want to call it an interest rate that's fine you can call it fees and not interest I'm also okay with that but the bottom line here is that we have principal income and time and that is a framework for interest rates and it just opens up the Pandora's Pandora's box of the entire capital market Wow that that is a beautiful stuff hey I want to say before we move on with this James in the super chat thank you very much clearly bitcoin is where the big boys play we're talking about some big boy subjects right now Gary do you have any thoughts on what Nick just said and he anything's to add on to that I mean not really I totally agree I think I think the decision to to layer it has been well thought out and seems to be leading a good results I know people have been criticizing lightning for for appearing decentralized rather centralized but that doesn't seem to be the case when you dig into the details in terms of like channel capacity and and how many channels actually are open for someone for a lot of these nodes so I think over time you're gonna see it need just as decentralized if not more so than the base layer with a lot of nice properties attached to it Murat haven't you I think the pod around lightning Network and lightning hubs being centralized is extremely overhyped first of all as the great stop and decrypt recently pointed out in his latest medium piece the there really isn't going on right now but even if there is mild centralization of hubs on sec there I think it's completely fine just like Nick described the idea is for the base layer to be hyper secure and hyper decentralized and slow now as you move to higher and higher layers you can start sort of toggling the the trade-offs and you can be faster but a bit more centralized and a bit more sort of a bit less secure and that's completely fine because like we're not going to be like putting our entire savings into lightning payment shop and all probably smaller amounts especially for the time being and also the lighting hubs from what it seems are going and like various lightning service providers are going to be extremely competitive and it will be relatively easy impossible to like to move from one hub to another they will come they will be competing based on reputation and trust and I think that like if one of the major lightning hubs for example abuses its centralization people like that information will like quickly leak and people will simply switch to other participants and other players so I think that even if there is mild centralization on like layers above the base layer I think that's completely fine and workable perhaps even desirable all right Nick you might have some follow-up to that there yeah that was great you know the thing about lightning network is that you don't have to use it right you can keep your Bitcoin on the base layer in your own private keys you don't have to release that liquidity if you don't want to but you can and you are taking some risks right I talked about how I don't feel feel that there's a direct counterparty default risk but there is risk of security there is risk that it's in a hot wallet there is risk that you can miss manage your payment channels and lose your Bitcoin if you don't you know if you don't follow the rules and you know you can you can lose your Bitcoin if you're not careful and so that risk should come with a reward those rewards are going to be in the form of routing fees and maybe other services that can be provided via lightning network but I'm focused on the routing aspect because it's a observable right now and you know with this income that you're making we can start to assess that type of interest that you're rewarded now I'm so glad that you differentiated between the type of risks that are involved because in your original article you specifically said there's no I don't know counterparty default risk here now that really is the case I mean that just seems amazing what do you think that a lot of big players are going to want to get into this very soon and put on a put a lot of money down in these chat a lot of big point down in some of these payment channels and do you expect this to happen soon or is it just is it too clunky the network now is is still just almost in beta version so that it would be too risky to do this yes what do you think about that well I think it's great because I believe it's going to be a free market because the only thing you need to compete in the Lightning Network is the software and the Bitcoin now anybody can have those two things it's not it's there no Barry there's no real barrier to entry here into the Lightning Network so if some centralization ends up happening then that's part of the market and then if people don't want that they will browse around that centralized hub and it's gonna be very interesting to see how it falls I don't know the degree to which you know big players are gonna come in they're not gonna view this as no counterparty risk so it's safe and I'm just gonna do it because it takes technical know-how you know I don't have a coding background so I'm not I don't have a lightning note up and running because I don't think that I could properly do it now I took months and months to learn private key storage so that I could do so myself right and that was part of my process of learning about Bitcoin but I don't think I'm ready for the Lightning Network because it there's gonna be technical no it's just gonna be above my capabilities currently with the current tools now hopefully that will change quickly and I can get involved and learn you know the little bit of code here there that I need to customize my note but right now I don't so I don't know what you know big players are gonna come in with what type of money but it will be a free market and it's going to be very interesting yeah there is there's a lot of technical know-how before you're gonna be become confident in doing this and know that you're actually doing the right thing and unfortunately I just thought of a horrible scenario in my head how as the net lighting Network becomes more and more publicized they're going to be like scammers creating like businesses saying hey we'll invest your money into our Lightning Network node and you'll return this interest to you and then they'll just they won't have a Lightning Network note at all and they'll just steal it I just did this all popped into my mind future scans of cryptocurrency don't pound that like button for that all right uh we're gonna move on from Lightning Network to uh garrier more I'll you have anything else to say about Lightning Network or Nick anything conclusionary remarks about Leighton Network actually I wanted to throw out that the payment channels like enable a lot of cool stuff it's not just about you know back and like the simple back and forth game at use case there's there's a lot of potential for building things like derivatives or kind of like uncollateralized or off chain collateralized payment channels that will show up over the next year or two that could lead the totally different applications that we haven't seen yet yeah I mean who knows you know that kind of it is in the internet you never you never would have predicted social media know what kind of sicko we're gonna put the social media on top we do not know what is gonna be created that's some of the most exciting aspects of it that in ten years we'll look back on this and be like oh my god they were so naive of what this was going to bring to the world so I'm serious about it obviously and I'm very happy to always have guessed that know so much about it and yeah that interest aspect of it is you know we hear about all the technical aspects of it but you know nick has brought it down to a very financial based his articles are the very financial base concerning the Lightning Network and more and more people gonna start talking about that so Gary I want to hear I wanna hear more about what you're doing out there because again you're nikka you got the trading you got you know a lot about the traditional stuff just to tell us tell us some stuff that's going on I guess it's pretty broad question there I'm giving you an open topic time here sure well at the moment I'm I'm kind of serving surveying the landscape so I'm interested in how the markets work how drivet azar gonna work lending stable coins insurance I think ideally if I see the right opportunity I'd like to build the business I think I mean I think we're all kind of an agreement that a big point is where it's at that's where a lot of the value is going to accrue so being able to build a business that's that's gonna take advantage of that kind of like a lever and exposure to Bitcoin becoming you know much much wider adoption as a store of value is what I'm interested in different ways of trading it hedging the risk moving it around etc you know you mentioned stable coins um you think that's really gonna become a thing I mean there's a lot of hype behind it and I think a lot of it is is almost buzzwords I mean you see you see a real place for them in the future a successful stable one well I guess one one caveat is I'm I am advising a stable fine project so and I'm probably a little bit biased oh yeah I think yes I think there will be a place for them I think the question that everyone's asking is is it going to be more than just a tether replacement I think people want to know if if stable coins are gonna leap out of the crypto world and become maybe potentially a major entry point in a crypto adoption worldwide I think it's very possible but obviously there's risk with risks attached to it some some of these stable point approaches appear to be pretty susceptible to collapse so that's another thing that that we're kind of worried about is there's all these stable plane projects coming out some of them might get big and then fail fail spectacularly and that would be a very bad look for the crypto world so I'm kind of worried about enabling that yeah it would be very I mean if there's centralization aspect of them too oh yeah I can I can speak quite extensively on stable coins go ahead hi I am an investor and a bunch of stable current projects but to be completely on it I think they are a temporary solution at best I think for the time in the short term medium term if they work they will be used as sort of a beast like the medium of exchange of a decentralized world but eventually bitcoin is superior to stable coins because it's a better store of value and eventually Bitcoin will be used as a medium of exchange because if Bitcoin goes to like ten fifteen trillion or bigger and people see that other people are valuing Bitcoin as something which is valuable then they will demand it as they will demand it as payment for their goods services and labor and so like for the time being like something like a stable coin can be useful especially in like countries which like have like hyperinflation or really high rates of inflation while bitcoin is still sort of undergoing this slow monetization but like it's stable coins are quite difficult like especially the like the non collateralized ones it's hard to be stable without the milk without a military and without a monopoly on money and without lenders of last resort and without like state decrees and legal tenders and debt extinguishing laws maintain my Teaneck stability is going to be incredibly difficult now I am generally optimistic but still like Bitcoin is king because bitcoin is fixed supply and so fixed supply is the best monetary policy imaginable it's sound money which is the most important thing and I think at the end like once Bitcoin gets big it becomes a stable coin and once Bitcoin gets big all stable coins will collapse yes I see that world awesome that world in the future another reason to get into Bitcoin now but wait Gary replied what he just said and and also talk about it Gary you had some tweets about decentralized exchanges also so I guess reply to Murad and then talk about too centralized exchanges is that you tweeted about that I believe yeah I'm inclined to agree with more admin but I think that the short run can be very long I mean it could be 20-plus years before bitcoins at the point where it's you know at the same level of stability as something like the US dollar so I think it's very possible to get there but yeah you can definitely do a lot of good in the next 20 years with a stable point right the short room can be very long that's very is very true it's very true but things do change Gary any ended that you're decentralized exchanges tweets that you had out there you have knowledge about many interest in them yeah yeah especially given kind of my trading background I'm interested in how the details of how these markets are functioning and Dex's are pretty cool right because you you eliminate a lot of a lot of issues with centralized because custodial risk and maybe some privacy so I'm an optimistic that they'll turn out to be functional and useful in the future although at the moment that seems to be not really the case unfortunately you know some of it is is a technological problem and that'll that'll take a few years to solve but a lot of it is kind of I see it being like institutional and legal issues as well like I think that the regulators need to find a way to deal with these kinds of structures without stifling innovation but also like preventing some of the bigger problems that can occur with money laundering at scale so I mean right now the problem is that the main liquidity providers and traditional exchanges kind of like high-frequency trading firms like the one I own I think can't really participate on a decks for some of these reasons and so that gets solved I think you're gonna have a hard time getting much trading done on them alright Nick I didn't mean to leave you out or anything any thoughts on these decentralize exchanges or these stable coin things are these just not your thing now I just agree with the the fixapply aspect of it you know the stable coin is you know by definition going to have a centralized Authority and a flexible monetary policy that you know we're not really sure what it is and I'm in Bitcoin for the stable monetary policy and you know don't really have an opinion about the stable coins outside of that okay excellent I'm not a big stable coin guy either but hey I'm glad these we finally had some Jews that did get to talk about we haven't had anyone on the show really talk about it yet so found that like button everybody if you like I'm bringing you all sorts of information today all right well we're getting we're getting close to the end here but I did one um I don't want to get people to more excited out there because I know there's some altcoin freaks out there murad you had a viewer to tweet and I I'm just doing it for memory here you like you had like a rat not a ranking but you listed like five coins that you thought were legitimate obviously the top one was Bitcoin but then you mentioned some others too I think you mentioned Z cash and you actually mentioned store a value do you remember this tweet that I'm talking about yeah for sure in one of the tweets I listed the top five coins in my view and in another tweet I listed the most important right for achieving story value so yeah Gober book but remember people this is not an endorsement of those coins but he can continue yes honestly them the longer I spend time in the cryptocurrency space I realized that as of right now everything other than Bitcoin is essentially trash and I kind of like privacy coins the two known scammed privacy coins manera NC cash I think if I were to choose among sort of the quote unquote premium out points I would add some minor proposer to narrow and z crash just because privacy probably Gator against Bitcoin but I do think the privacy will continuously and slowly improve on Bitcoin as well I included etherium and D cred in that top five list just to rounded out to five but honestly I'm pretty bearish on though in terms of a store of value I would say that the most important things are security disinflationary monetary policy and the credibility of monetary policy and sort of the link the effect associated with those three things at the end of the day the purpose of money is an anxiety it's to reduce anxiety about an uncertain future and you want a protocol that is reliable you want a protocol that is robust and you want a protocol that makes you think that it's safe and when I think about the cryptocurrency space Bitcoin is clearly the best along those criteria so I think it's it's much riskier to park millions of dollars of wealth and out points other than a speculative bet if I have to chief I have to go to coma for three years obviously I would put money in Bitcoin first and foremost so that that all right guys he said D Craig by the way all the deep red freaks go crazy when anyone says that on the show I'm just pointing that out a boob I'll see some view to the comment section hey we've got a question from the audience for mention McDowell thank you for the $10 to perch at mention I don't know if any of you guys can answer this but here's the question how soon till we see decentralized labor apps like TaskRabbit that will allow a diesel mechanic like myself to pick up mechanic work anonymously and outside of the conventional financial system anyone have an answer to that question that was a pretty targeted question there how soon till we see a decentralized decentralized labor acts like TaskRabbit that will allow a diesel mechanic like myself to pick up mechanic work anonymously outside of the conventional financial system I think it depends on the jurisdiction to be honest with you so I don't it's impossible to say when but I think it also depends on the degree of labor law freedom and you know accessibility to technology so I don't know when or where but I think it will come down to you know different countries will adopt that type of thing at different speeds all right country specific stuff there well and any other thoughts on that anyone out there prevention I know it's very specific thing hey man tah in terms of time I'd say it's a it's a little while hey just because people are working on so many I mean maybe we still gotta get user interface down with like Bitcoin okay you're talking about something really specific they're decentralized labor hats man I mean for the average dude I don't I don't know when those things are gonna be available I mean let's get a big Bitcoin user interface easier first let's get lightning Network you know the main second layer a solution that everybody knows first there's that I mean that was just a discussion I was having an ending tonight there is so much work to be done we're so early on in all this I mean it's like 1994 and internet terms still and we just we just know how some guys like that you know how complex this can get eventually we're just I mean we're far off from there right now all right let's uh let's get to everybody's conclusionary thoughts here we'll start with Gary was there anything left out anything you wanted to talk about any any replies you wanted to say or anything you want to promote talk about your what you're doing your business again his Twitter is linked to below taking away Gary the floor is yours I think just in general I want to share my enthusiasm with with how the Bitcoin community is developing and I am generally of the belief that big point is where it's at and the amount of infrastructure being built on it it's just early days so it's really exciting to see it all come together yeah myself all right Murad what do you what do you get thank you Gary for be on the show your first time on this show it's it's awesome to have you want to meet you Murad you – your first time here great to have you you guys are just bringing different perspectives on everything but any conclusionary thoughts anything that was left out you want to say I think if you want to accelerate the adoption of Bitcoin and make it go faster I think you need to turn as many high net-worth individuals and institutions into hard layers of last resort or at least make them make them understand the investment theses and the fact that bitcoin is objectively a higher quality and a stronger harder sounder money than what we have right now you need to paint a picture that bitcoins victory is inevitable and have them start allocating even small pieces towards it I like it you know when I want to go back to Gary on that real quick I got you know as a trader I mean what do you think about how blurs of last resort with your table and good for them I mean I think it's a good idea yeah I think I think just like you know buying stocks the correct move is to buy and hold but people need to trade for all kinds of reasons so functional markets are good for everybody yes yes strong hand people you know where I where I lay on that line people you know trading it's risky 95% of people lose all right let's let's go to Nick the lightning Network master in my well in terms of finance dude what what are the things you have to share what other knowledge you want to drop on us before we are you guys go out to dinner and have fun in the west coast or wherever everybody is today anything that was left out anything he was saying dick thank you for being on today by the way it's great to finally meet ya and thank you for having me yeah what I'm working on now is called the lightning Network reference rate it's an idea that I had where you know we can observe reference we can observe interest rates for individual lightning notes if we can come together and decide on a consensus method on how to calculate these interest rates and publish it to each other whether in a trust list or a trusted way we can start to build a capital market on top of that so the foundation of every capital market and every financial transaction has two components it has time value and it has risk premium and in lightning Network we can observe both of these things and so we can just start to develop the tools to have Bitcoin denominated financial markets and it's really exciting to me I'm thrilled to be a part of the Bitcoin community and engaging with a lot of people so thank you to everybody that's reached out and look forward to continued writing and developing this idea in an open source transparent way also all their links are below their twitter links you can follow on Twitter see all their awesome articles and tweaks or tweets remember Andrew Rogers dropped off by accent there one or Bitcoin equals one Bitcoin and devalue your relative Bitcoin value your wealth and Bitcoin I think that is the direction that Nick is is taking us in which is awesome okay everybody that's it for this week in Bitcoin pound that light bond of course we do this show every Friday The Times very you know how it is just tuned in every Friday every Saturday is the is the beyond Bitcoin show I don't know what time that'll be on tomorrow and then every other day is the one Bitcoin show I posted a new show here every day check out the links section below everybody get your treasurer ledger net or your t-shirts and remember I'm speaking here on Wednesday in Boise then a Los Angeles I'll be on what the 11th and the 18th to Philadelphia all of that is linked to below thanks a lot everybody have a great night have a great time thank you guests again pound that like let's see everybody later bye
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