We don't know if Satoshi just wanted to create something so people could trade swords and shields in games, whatever We don't know if they genuinely thought this was something that could take down the banks, we don't know if they wanted it to be peer-to-peer cash, we don't know
We don't know any of these things We just speculate Satoshi might be a vegan and hate all this carnivore shit Peter, nice to have you here finally It's a pleasure
Let me shake your hand So, I usually start with the question, what we are drinking today, maybe just describe, what's the drink, and what's your favorite drink actually? I know that we are not drinking your favorite drink today Well, that's a tough one Favorite drink is a whiskey sour A good nice bourbon whiskey sour, but I like red wine, I like red wine a lot
We talked about this last night And whenever I travel, I try and taste the local wine, even if it's a country not known for its red wine The best one I've ever had that wasn't known was in Thailand, and they have a lot of dreadful wine, but I had one really good one Thailand? Yeah, in Thailand They're not known for their red wine
You said, try the Georgian wine Yeah, we don't have this, we're filming now in Riga, Latvia, and Lativa is not famous for wine, obviously, because it's too cold and we're more famous for beer But like the closest one decent wineries are in Georgia, I think so It's a good one How does it feels being interviewed, not being an interviewer? It's always weird
I don't really like it as much I prefer asking the questions I think I get the opportunity to see some really amazing people, intelligent people, opinionated people who are very good articulating the things they're interested in, the things they've got expertise, and I don't I prefer if it's on the Bitcoin side of things I always struggle because I don't feel like I have an area of expertise, I'm much more interested in the broader landscape and I'm interested in kind of history, the personalities and So, I don't stick, I don't tend to spend so much time
On the technical details Yeah, the technical, the economics, I don't spend time in the books I don't spend time looking at every upcoming BIP and what it means, I don't tend to do that, because most of my time I'm more looking into the culture, the personalities, what people are doing, so I prefer to be on the other side, asking the questions, but I'm happy to do it
I mean, you know, I've done it a few times and I just you know, when you want to do an interview about Bitcoin, it's usually on a specific topic So if you're to interview someone like Adam Back, you might go into the history of Bitcoin and you might ask him about Hashcash
And then you might interview a Matt Corallo and you want to get into the technical side Or you might interview, I don't know, someone like Mashinsky about kind of money and the economics And I know everyone kind of has their expertise and they spend a lot of time in that Whereas, because I'm interviewing everyone, I don't really have an area of expertise I guess the only area I think I possibly add a bit of value beyond asking questions is
I tend to try and think of the beginners, how novice people will use Bitcoin and try and be a bit more pragmatic, and a lot of people disagree with me Although I think I've been making some headroom recently Okay So, do you have a favorite interview? Yeah, I get asked this a lot and it's really hard, it's really hard At least like top three Well, I always say probably my favorite for a number of reasons was the interview with Lyn Ulbricht, Ross Ulbricht's mother, because the Silk Road was how I discovered Bitcoin
There was my next question Yeah, I was always a customer And that's a very interesting part of my life, part of my history, you know, the previous addicts and Yeah, the story of the Silk Road being closed down, that was kind of interesting, and then I wasn't properly into Bitcoin apart from using it to buy on the website And then a few years later I get into Bitcoin
properly about 2016, and once I started the podcast in November 17, I was heading out to Austin no, I was heading out to the States and I wanted to interview Ross but that was actually impossible, you know, he's in prison So I reached out to his mum and just said: "Look, would you like to come on the podcast", and she said "yes" Turned out the date we booked it was actually Ross's birthday, which was very unusual, totally unplanned It was her birthday, I think, the day after as well And that was only like my 12th interview
But quite a personal story, I don't know if we even mentioned Bitcoin in the interview I did a lot of preparation because I wanted to take care, I actually videoed interview live myself, I just set up one camera And that was really important for me, because by the end of it because the podcast was a hobby at that point, I was just doing interviews and wasn't particularly skilled at it And I realized at the end of that, after we shook hands, I had a hug and she left, I was like, I really want to be an interviewer I want to do this as a job So this was a turning point for you Yeah, it was, and it was a turning point that I also knew
I've done nearly 200 interviews now, then at number 12, I knew I wanted to go beyond just doing Bitcoin interview So I wanted to get into more personal stories So that's a particularly important and favorite interview, I've got to know Lin very well, you know, we've done three interviews now, Ross has written to me a couple of times, I've written to him, and it's just a very important story to me
But there's other ones I've really enjoyed The first time I interviewed Andrew Poelstra was really good So, I went to the MIT conference in Boston, and we had it scheduled, and I watched his presentation beforehand and it was something technical, really He's very technical Yeah, is it zk-SNARKs or something? I don't know, something, and I was like I was watching his presentation, I was just like "I don't know what I'm gonna do about this"
And we just sat down and we just jammed through an hour in a bit It was really funny He's a great person to interview and everybody who listened to it came back and said that they loved it because he was just brilliant And then I also did an interview with Chris DeRose and Junseth who used to have Bitcoin Uncensored that's, what do they say, built on stands on the shoulder of giants I mean their show, you know, I was aware of it, watched a few of them There's a great vibe between the two of them, they used to do, I think, where they would film their show in the toilet at a conference? I mean, it was brilliant And then someone said to me: "Oh, you should get try and get Junseth"
And I didn't know Junseth as well as Chris and I was like: "Why, what's the angles?" I would find out about, you know, when their relationship broke down and I was like: "Okay, tell me all about this" You know, this is one of the things with starting essentially in 2017 It's all this history you don't know about, and there's so much I don't It's like: "Well, tell me what happened" So I got the story, and basically, they'd fallen out
They hadn't seen each other in two years So I reached out for both and said: "Look, can I get you two together for an interview?" And they both said yes I was like, all right, I'll come to Miami So I booked a hotel and I was very conscious that they shouldn't get in the lift together So I timed it so one would come first, took him up to the room, and then
I think Junseth came first, then I went downstairs and got Chris so that we all went in the room together rather than all standing in an elevator being awkward And they used to do that thing where they took their shirts off, so I just said: "Let's all take our shirts off", and, you know, mean Junseth on the best in shape So the three of us just sat there topless, and we did nearly three hours, and it was brilliant
There was like a little tension between them, but they still had this thing, you could see that if you weren't in the room, you listened to it, you would hear them talk, but I could see they still had this thing and it was like these different forces coming at points They were just vibing totally onside together, and then there were these little moments where they weren't agreeing and it was like a little bit of a battle, and then it ended and they just went their separate ways
I don't think they've seen each other again And I think that was a really good one because of all the feedback, all the people came back to me afterwards and said: "Thank you so much for doing that" They were obviously fans of Bitcoin Uncensored But it's tough, man You do 200 interviews, there's so many important or special, ones I really like
I'll tell you one more actually, but this is my other show, you know, I did the other show, Defiance So, bear in mind, I've told this story before but bear in mind 7 years ago I was working in advertising in London
It was going okay, then I got married, then I got divorced, then I was a junkie and then my business collapsed So, 4-ish years ago my business collapsed, I was out of work, everything just gone to crap So I launched get through the rest of the story, I launched Defiance and I had the opportunity to interview Thae Yong-Ho, he's the most senior defector from North Korea and he's in Taiwan So I'm like: yep, fine I'll come So, not overly thinking about it And I get there, and I meet him in the lobby of the hotel and he's got four bodyguards with him And so we go and get in the lift, and they just stood in the four corners of lift and me and him next to each other, I'm like thinking "this is so weird", and we got to the room and basically I had to wait outside, they had to go sweep the room, and then they guarded the room
And the reason being is, you know, Kim Jong Un wants him dead And as Kim Jong Un killed his own brother, I mean, it's always a possibility But there was just this moment where I've got the equipment set up and he sat there with me and there's the guards outside and I've just like: oh, this has all got a bit kind of weird But yeah, so many different things have happened over these last two years I just feel really lucky and really blessed, because if I hadn't stumbled across this, I don't know what I would be doing with my life
I'd probably be doing a job I didn't like And I've got this new opportunities They feel very lucky To the new opportunities That's a unique wine
So, podcasts Why did you decide it after the advertising career? I think you were some kind of investment manager as well, or you were investing? No I mean, I did some crypto trading So, took a year off after my agency collapsed My mom was sick, my mom was dying from cancer
So it's been a lot of time with her, and you know, I got into Bitcoin because I wanted to get a treatment for her And what happened was, I started trading and doing very well, thinking I'm some kind of genius Obviously, I'm not, because the whole market was going bananas in 2017
But also, on the back end of my life kind of going through a collapse, I ended up at a yoga retreat in Italy run by a podcaster called Rich Roll So just through a weird chain of events, I won't go through the details, but I just ended up there Went running with him one morning and then spend the whole week with him, his wife, 30 other people and this very intense emotional retreat Basically, everyone who was there was fucked up in one way or another, you know, and trying to look for some kind of solution for whatever problem was in their life, but we all just hung out, it was really great week And Rich said to me: man, if you're ever in LA, just let me know, we can hang out
And I kind of knew I wanted to meet up and hang out with him again, so I just put flight in LA, my friend lives out there So stayed with my friend, hung out with him again And then I was doing the trading, and I ended up going back and forth, and I just think, I was just looking at Rich and thinking: this podcasting thing you do seems really cool You know, it seems like a good life You travel, you get to meet really interesting people, and your job is just to talk, and learn And I was like: "That sounds really cool So, right, I think I'm gonna do a podcast"
And there was only really one I was aware of which was Laura Shin's I know there were a few others, but that was only one I was really aware of So I just messaged and said: "Look, Rich, I think I'm going to do a podcast, how do you do it?" And he sent me the link to Pat Flynn's course, he said "this is the equipment you need" And Bitcoin was nearly 20,000 so I just went to Amazon, ordered all the equipment to be delivered the next day, and then I messaged Luke Martin aka @venturecoinist on Twitter I was like: "Luke, you're in LA, I'm thinking to start a podcast, you wanna be the first guest?" He said: "Yeah", I said: "Could you do it tomorrow?", he said: "Yep" So I got the equipment I try to remember the setup back then, because it's very different from all the equipment I have now I mean, some of the equipment was the same, but I think it was all in a rucksack or something So, I went up to his house and we recorded the first show Did the second one in
not in London, in Leicestershire with Nik Patel, and that was cool And then I e-mailed Lopp I saw this guy, this picture of this guy with this beard and a gun, saying "Make Bitcoin great again", I was like: "Can I come and interview you, and can I do it in person? And can you take me to shoot a gun, because I've never shot one?" So I flew out to the States
God, I swear, his house, it was just guns everywhere bear in mind, I've never even held a gun And then he took me shooting, which was a really strange experience, and then we recorded interview 3, which was great, and then I didn't do one for a good month or so And then I realized, like, if I'm gonna do this I gonna be consistent So from like February, maybe, 18 or January 18, I then did a show a week and here we are Two years and three months later, and you and I sit here
Yeah, and actually, I think last year Coindesk named you top-10 person for building podcast empire in crypto Wasn't that Cointelegraph? I can't remember I think Coindesk was Yeah, that was cool Yeah, that was cool, but do you have, like, secret sauce for building and being successful as a podcast? Because I see now many many people, they want to do this for a living, they want to succeed
Obviously, I'm doing this because it's like fun and hobby, and I have a lot of different other stuff to do But yeah, maybe there's some kind of secret sauce or something like that Yeah, I mean, it's not such a secret, I'll tell anyone what I do There's a bunch of things I think that go into it I mean, some of it is luck, you know, there's been some luck
I think one of the things that helped me to begin with is the commitment to do all the interviews in person Like, the majority I mean, maybe it's 75%, but in doing that you get a few things Firstly, it's a much higher quality interview, you know Imagine we were doing this over Skype, it would be entirely different
So it's a much higher quality interview And I think it's for a couple of reasons Usually you get to hang out with them a bit So, you and I went out, had some vodka last night and ate, so we get a bit of time together And I know we've met before, but if that was the first time, we would have had a period of time to get to know each other and get a feel for each other's personality
But even if you're just turning up and you've got 10-15 minutes, you still get a feel for that person So that's good, you understand more about them and their signals and body language, which I think really helps The second thing is you have this full vision of the person, so there's less interrupting I know when you want to speak and you know when I want to speak just from little body movements, so that really helps I think that creates a better quality interview
That's one of the things Then there's a few other things like I've got a background in marketing, so I focused on the the name was important, the branding, the website, the SEO, you know, all that really helped
I think one of the things that helped is the fact that I targeted beginners and novices and I've never left that I've on purpose stayed within that as my audience Because it's a bigger audience, firstly I think there's a lot more people who want to hear entertaining style podcasts, maybe would like Jack Mallers and Bitcoin Mom together, laughing and joking, or want to hear my beginner's guide, than maybe somebody wants to hear about how Wasabi Wallet works I'm not saying that's not important, but I think that just has a bigger audience
I think a lot of people don't realize what happens in the background One of the things I have done, it's been a lot of time trying to learn the craft of interviewing You know, I don't just turn up now and do them, I've spent a lot of time watching some of the best interviews, lots of Larry King, and just trying to see what they do, see if I can learn from it I even listen to Rogan and how he does it in his adverts, and I think: can I learn anything from that? You know, I've read up about narratives and how you can construct a narrative in an interview, make it engaging And what is the show title, just the show title? Not clickbaity, but what is it, you know? So if you look back at some of my shows, you've got: "What happens when Bitcoin takes over?", "Why we need Bitcoin", "Killing the hopes and dreams of shitcoin bagholders"
Coming up with names that draw people, I think that helps I've got a very I'll show you later, it's my back office, set of Google docs that I manage it with, like "who the guests are, why I target them, what the narrative is"
The way I use Twitter, although that, I get that wrong sometimes but I just think there's like it all probably comes down to, I just really care about this and really want to do a good job, so therefore I treat it as a business and I really focus on it and I think about it all the time One guy once said to me: "What's your talent, you just press start and stop on that"
I mean, you, how many have you done now? I think, ten Ten? And I imagine you feel like you're getting better as you do more I don't know, it's up to people to decide I'm just less nervous, yes Way more confident, yes
But still, for me it's a bit easier to do an interview in Russian, because I'm a native Russian speaker, but English also very good So obviously, yeah, it's getting better from time to time But I think it's just like anything, you just get better We've got three guys here with cameras and mics, there would have been a time when they first picked up a camera and they first started videoing And now they know where to position the lights, how to set the mic, you know
And they might have had two cameras to begin with, now they have three, because they want a shot on each And just over time you just get better at this stuff if you work at it, and I think maybe that's it And I just think I've also been really lucky that, you know, people have really warmed some people have really warmed to what I'm doing, would understand it and support it Yes So, you are famous for I'm not famous "What Bitcoin Did" Well, you are famous, at least in cryptocommunity for "What bitcoin Did" And now you recently launched Defiance podcast Can you tell me
well, we do understand what is about "What Bitcoin Did" podcast, it's obviously about Bitcoin and maybe some other technologies around that But Defiance, what about Defiance? What's the main topic? What's the idea behind this? So, about the background to it was Some of my favorite "What Bitcoin Did" shows are the ones that aren't really about Bitcoin So, interviewing Lyn Ulbricht about Ross, what's going on in his life Interviewing sex workers, finding out what's going on in Venezuela I enjoy, I feel more comfortable doing that kind of work because
probably because I find the topics really really super interesting, and that's not that I don't find Bitcoin interesting, but the topics are so different, you've got a guy in prison for the rest of his life, you've got a country under authoritarian rule, which is society's collapsing, you've got sex workers explaining that financial restrictions make their lives more dangerous These are really interesting and important topics And so I just had this hunger to just do something else and I had that ever since Lyn Ulbricht one And then what happened was, Alex Gladstein from the Human Rights Foundation, you know Alex, great guy He invited me to Oslo for the Freedom Forum When I was there, I said: I've gotta do something else, Alex, I need again some other topics So we talked some ideas back and forth And, you know, I was trying to come up with a name, and I just one day came up with this "Defiance" thing, and I can't remember why
I said I think I've got the name, he's like: "Great name", and so he wrote the manifesto Yeah, and it's going now, it's I've handed a Bitcoin show on it and it would cover Bitcoin, Bitcoin is relevant to Defiance, but you know, it's just anything which is
either activism, politically questioning things, standing up to authority, personal struggles, maybe, any of those interesting stories that kind of challenge the norms of life And the shows have ranged from I mean, I did one with Rich Roll who inspired me to start a podcast, because, you know, he was an alcoholic who became a vegan ultra athlete I think that's a super interesting story I went out to Bolivia and interviewed somebody regarding Evo Morales and what's happening there I mean, I was in El Salvador and met a couple who are trying to get drug addicted kids off the street
So, there's a range of topics But it just allows me to expand beyond just Bitcoin Who's your favorite podcaster? Good question Again, I can't just give one answer So, it's a bit cliche, but I would put Joe Rogan out there, and the reason I put Joe Rogan out there: he's
I think he's really good at holding down a 2 to 3 hour conversation, sometimes 4 hours and it just seems like he can go forever And I'm amazed by it I had some where I struggled to get more than an hour
And he does it every time: two, three, four hours And he's engaging, and he's funny, and he's not politically correct He's got his finger on the pulse of what a lot of people are thinking I don't agree with him on everything, but he's also helped make podcasting a thing, he's helped make that a thing for everyone else, which is very cool So I don't listen to all his shows because it's too many, but I listen to at least one a week of his
I also really like, I'm gonna pick a Bitcoin one Because I don't really listen to crypto podcasts, but I think Marty Bent is a very very good interviewer I've really enjoyed his interviews I enjoy his face offs with Matt Odell as well But when Marty gets the right guest and they really start to vibe, it's really good
I really enjoy that And a third one, I think of the third one well, I'll pick Serial
And again, it's a really obvious one, because it's the biggest podcast ever But it's the biggest podcast ever, because it's brilliant They managed to create a documentary which everyone was listening to at one point, you know, and her voice is incredible So, yeah, let me I can't put a name on him, that's a good podcast, but actual podcaster, I forget his name, "This American Life" guy Why can't I remember his name? The guy from "This American Life", anyway The name will come to me, you can put it in the show notes, okay? Again, he's very measured in the way he talks to people, but he can create a podcast with anyone He doesn't have to be a famous person, he could be a guy on the street he finds interesting
He can create a very engaging podcast through that So, they're the ones I like So, do you think that success of the podcast is the guest that you invite or rather the interviewer? Or it's both? I mean, depends what you call success But I think the guest can make the show, but you tend to go back because you like the person, right? I like how Marty interviews people, I like how Joe interviews people I'll go and check other ones out because I want to hear the interview, but do I love the person, do I want to keep going back? No, some of them I don't
So, Eric Weinstein now has a podcast And I went to listen to his one with Werner Herzog And I listened to it, because I wanted to listen to Werner Herzog I'm not a huge fan of Eric Weinstein I think he's smart, but it's just not my thing
He gets really good guests, when he gets the right guest, I want to hear it Whereas someone I really like, like a Marty or a Joe, I want to listen to it because I want to listen to how they interview, so I think it can be both I think it can be both, but it's all kind of like taste as well You know, I imagine there's a huge amount of people who love listening to Eric Weinstein, because he's so smart and the way he thinks about things And I reckon there are some people who cannot stand Joe Rogan, because they just find him, maybe, irritating, or they don't like his worldview
But there's something out there for everyone You still have, I think everyone has lists of guests that they want to have on their podcast? Of course Let's go with the top three again So the first one I want is John Simpson He's head of BBC World News, which
a lot of people don't like the BBC because it's state news, whatever, but John Simpson as a journalist is somebody I find very inspirational And when I was 9 years old, I wrote to him a letter He wrote back to me, he replied
It always stuck with me I just wrote him and said: "Hello, how do you do, can you answer some questions? Have you ever been arrested? What was it like?" You know, kid questions, but he wrote back to me He took the time Yeah, this was before the Internet These guys here won't even know of a time
You might not know How old are you? 33 Yeah, you probably don't remember
No, I know I was sending the letters, writing, all that stuff I mean, my kids can't imagine a world of no internet, but there was, there was a time we didn't have phones, didn't have internet Not to sound like an old person, but you would write letters to people And I wrote to him and he wrote back, and it always stuck with me
And I read his book, and I actually reached out to his agent and said: "Can we do it?", and they said "yes", so at some point I hope I'm going to get that one So, that's number one I really want to interview James Hetfield from Metallica I just wanna do it You're a huge Metallica fan? I am! I'm probably a bigger Guns N' Roses fan, but I just think James Hetfield is such as interesting interview, because, you know, they've toured the globe, they've sold out stadiums in every country in the world pretty much, as a really full-on thrash metal band
That's essentially what they were But they've been through a lot, there's a lot of interesting stories in there: the death of their bassist, the second bassist leaving, the alcoholism, what happen with Dave Mustaine from Megadeth? It's like so many interesting things, that all have been covered, I just want to ask my versions of all these questions So yeah, I'd love to interview him And I mean, if we put in anyone in the world, I'd love to interview Sean Penn He's my favorite actor
But I mean, this is reaching for the stars I think I might be able to get John Simpson And the other two, yeah, you never know I fancy my chances Maybe James Hetfield will tweet now, like: "Let's go to the moon, I'm buying Bitcoin", and suddenly
What about you? Obviously I don't know, I didn't thought about it I'm more like I would go with more people that are hyping now, like Elon Mask, most probably, I would love to interview him
Definitely would love to interview Joe Rogan I'm also big fan of his podcast And, I don't know, the third one you interviewed him I would love to interview Nick Szabo Yeah, that was interesting one, yeah You had an interview with him So, my question I usually ask in the end about Satoshi Nakamoto
If you had an opportunity to have an interview with Satoshi Nakamoto not disclosing his personality, would you do that? I mean, only if he/she/they wanted to Yeah, of course I mean, if somebody reached out to me and said: "Hey, Pete, I want to do it, these are my conditions", I mean, of course Sorry, I missed one, can I just go back a step? Obviously, I want to interview Ross Ulbricht, without doubt And I think that day will come
I should have said that, sorry I mean if they want to, of course, I want to do it If there is slight chance that you will know who is Satoshi Nakamoto and there's chance that maybe some other people will know that? I hope it doesn't happen, as much as I want it and it'd be great for my career I don't think it'll ever happen, and I don't want it to ever happen And I don't even appreciate people trying to find out
So you're fine with not knowing who is Satoshi Nakamoto I mean, I want to know, just out of intrigue, but I don't care enough to go and hunt I mean if people want to have a conversation about it, I will I don't like to have recorded conversations about it because it's speculating, and if that person I actually wrote, and I don't write that often, I wrote a blog post, I actually wrote that Satoshi doesn't matter, because he's gone Obviously, yes He made a decision, let's forget about it, let's move on But people love a mystery, right? Yeah, I mean, if they did, if they reached out and they wanted to, of course
I just hope it never happens Yeah But don't you think it's a smart move that was made by him or her or them, not disclosing who is Satoshi Nakamoto? Yeah, I mean I guess it happened for a few reasons I think, if you look at prehistory of Bitcoin and all the different projects that failed, I think that person, if they're smart enough to create a Bitcoin and they're smart enough to realize they've probably cracked, finally put all the pieces of that jigsaw together to make this thing work, that if it is successful, they probably don't want or need that attention I imagine that person isn't an extrovert, so But we can only ever speculate on why they did it and it is just speculation We don't know if Satoshi just wanted to create something so people could trade swords and shields in games, whatever We don't know if they genuinely thought this was something that could take down the banks, we don't know if they wanted it to be peer-to-peer cash, we don't know We don't know any of these things, we just speculate Satoshi might be a vegan and hate all this carnivore shit
I don't know, we just don't know, we can only speculate It's a fascinating story there, right? Yeah, it is So, about Bitcoin That's my favorite part Bitcoin
How did you discovered it? You already mentioned it, obviously, through the Silk Road But can we go in details with that? Yeah, yeah, I've told you before I watched an advertising That was cocaine and advertising, and my friends My friend, I think he texted me or something, or maybe called me
He said: "Oh, Pete, I found this website where you can buy coke online" I said: "What? What do you mean you can buy?" He said: "Yeah, it's like Amazon, but it's got all different drugs and you can buy it online" I was like, really? What is it, that Silk Road? So I put it in Google and ended up at
I couldn't find the website, because it turned out you need a Tor So I ended up on what I think was Gizmodo or Gawker, maybe, one of their articles about it And I was just looking at the photos from the website
I was like, "this cannot be real" So I phoned my friend back, and he was like: "No, no, it's totally real, my friends are using it You need this thing called Bitcoin and you've got to get a Tor browser" I was like, "what's Bitcoin?", and he was like, "oh, it's just digital money" So, you know, at no point was I thinking about learning about Bitcoin or decentralized money
For me, I've spent no time looking at how it worked, what it meant All I knew is somebody said it's money they can't trace to you, because that's what people thought at the time, and you can use it on this website So I went on your rival, LocalBitcoins, that's where I did my Well, not rival anymore But that was my first Bitcoin purchase It was back when you had to what did you have to do? To have like a photo of you, with a message on it? Yeah, yeah And then you would do the bank transfer and be held in escrow and it would transfer it to you, it is a reputation system I remember buying my first Bitcoin, it was probably like $100 At that point Yeah, and I probably got 1, or maybe I bought like 10, who knows
Whatever And then I downloaded the Tor browser and eventually got onto this website I sent my Bitcoin there and bought some cocaine And then I was doing it all the time, because the website was brilliant They had this review system, so you could just order the dealers in terms of the reviews and get really good high quality uncut cocaine
And as a cocaine user – it was brilliant It was, until it wasn't, until you end up doing too much But yeah, what a great amazing system It was one of those things it wasn't just that, I didn't look at it and go, "isn't Bitcoin amazing?" I actually was like, "isn't the Silk Road amazing?" I don't have to phone up that guy who will say, "I'll be there in 15 minutes", and then 3 hours later he's not there or you meet him in a car park You've got no idea what crap you're getting, you got home, it is cut with some bullshit It's like: wow, I'm getting very high quality drugs with good customer service with no risk, with little or no danger as well Isn't this better than prohibition? It immediately struck me how amazing this was
I didn't really care about Bitcoin at that point And then I just started trading some Bitcoin just for fun, and again, made a lot, lost it all like a moron How much did you made? Oh, I mean, I turned like 2,000 into like 40,000, and then lost a lot And I was trading ETH, and I was trading Tesla stock as well Yeah, I just didn't know what I was doing, to be honest
Made and lost it, forgot about it And then I just forgot about Bitcoin Just like: yeah, that was it Then I was watching, the price peaked at 1200, it was 2013-14 time, and I used to every now and again go back: "Oh, nice, even lower – 500, and 400, and 300", I was like: "This thing's dead" And then it kind of did that thing where it hovered around like 150-200, I can't remember, and it started to grow again
Again, I wasn't getting back into it then I didn't get it I fundamentally didn't know anything about it But then my mom got sick, I told you about it, my dad said I said: "We should try the cannabis", he was like: "How do you get it?", I was like: "Remember, I used to do that stuff", and he was like: "Well, that's it, buy some Bitcoin and do it" So he gave me the money, Bitcoin was like 600$ or something, 700$, it was December 16, I found Coinbase, bought Bitcoin, and that's it, here we are now At which point you understood actually that you're willing to do the podcast about Bitcoin, when you researched the market, or you were finally fascinated by technology or something like that? Yeah, I was finally fascinated by Bitcoin So, it was a tool for the Silk Road
But this time it was like: okay, this is something let's look deeper into it But I was more into the thought of cryptocurrency and blockchains
It was like: wow, I can have this private currency here, and I've got Bitcoin here, and then I've got there's this banking currency called Ripple, and there's all these other ones that just did different things I was like: "God, this is
", because I lived through the dot-com boom I was like, this is the same thing And that's why I always say to people: don't be overly hard sometimes on shitcoiners
Just be a little bit empathetic You know, these people aren't just being morons for the sake of it I get it, I believed it, I was like, "this makes sense" And then over time I realized it was all bollocks and didn't make sense, and became hardened to Bitcoin But that was after starting a podcast
And then I just became more and more interested in it And it's been more time I always took more of an interest in the freedom/human rights side of things then I did in tech as such
But you have to then learn a bit about the tech anyway, a little bit You are sticking with the idea that basically there's nothing worth in crypto except of Bitcoin, or you have other projects that you follow, or other altcoins or shitcoins you actually like? No, I'm not really I mean, I'm interested in watching theory and playout as just an observer, because you've got this whole group of people who believe Ethereum is going to be incredible, or believe it is already, and it's gonna do so much for people, and you know, it's great for open finance, and blah blah blah, right? They believe that
And then there's a whole group of people like: "This is nonsense, it doesn't make any sense What are you doing?" And it's like, how can two sets of people be so diametrically opposed? But they are I'm more with the bitcoiners, all the people who think it's nonsense and can't scale I can't argue why, but when I see the articulated reasons, I tend to agree with the Bitcoin people So it's really interesting how that plays out
I'm not such a maximalist I think it won't exist in 5 years So that's one of things you got to say, what is success/failure? If it's still there in 5 years, is it a success? You know, there are stablecoins Depends on the state, how it exists in five years
Of course, but they're right, not everything lives forever You know, we used to have a telephone at home, you have to turn the number I just have a mobile, I don't have a phone at home anymore
You know, things have a shelf life Sometimes it can be years, decades What was a shelf life of a tamagochi, year or two? Now, get away from what people might think about the way Ethereum has been marketed, people losing money Does it serve, can it do a thing? Well, it has stablecoins running on it Can somebody make choice to buy a bunch of that stablecoin in England and then send it to someone in Australia and avoid the banks? Is this something you can do? Whether it makes sense is a different story, but you can do it, right? So I'm not such a maximalist I'd say I just think long term it's a stupid idea, but I'm not such a maximalist, I often say: "Well, look, it's there and people are using it" I've got no interest in buying anything on it myself I won't ever buy or invest or trade ETH again
I have mild interest in Monero, it's interesting I like the way it came to be I like Fluffy, I think he's a cool guy Will I buy/trade it – no There's nothing really that interests me
I kind of want most of it just to disappear now Also, I'm not such a maximalist, I don't think somebody can't do something in the future Like, if somebody creates something, and it is another cryptocurrency Rational maximalist, you know A Bitcoin rationalist, that was Lily Liu did a show called Bitcoin Rationalism, yeah
But it's not about being open-minded, it's just about being realistic and just allowing people to do what they're gonna do And if somebody presents something that is interesting, I'm not going to just go "no" just because it's not Bitcoin But you had the backlash and you're still having it with strong Bitcoin maximalists Not all of them I'm getting increasingly
people message me now saying: "I understand why you're doing what you're doing and why you say what you say" Okay, that was the plan? No, not really a plan, I just don't really care if people don't agree with me If I think I'm right on that certain issue, then I think I'm right
And, you know the whole thing around nodes, and I still get a lot of shit for it I still think I'm right, fundamentally think I'm right Can you describe this situation with the nodes? Because some people might not know that All right So, what happened was
2 years in doing a podcast, being in Bitcoin, or maybe a little bit less, I still have never set up a node Every time I was like, I can't be bothered I've got my hardware wallet, it never fails me
Yeah, every time I send Bitcoin, each time I receive it, I've never had one failed Bitcoin transaction ever Everything works And people are saying: "Well, you need to set up a node, because if you're not verifying your UTXOs, then you're not a proper bitcoiner, you're not self-sovereign" I'm like: "Well, I can understand what you're saying, but this is working for me" And I was thinking, "what is a node?" I mean, I know what a node does, but I was like: "What is it to me? What do I do? Does that mean I have to set it up and I have to transfer my Bitcoin from my hardware wallet to my node or does it talk to my node?", somebody said about Electrum, I was just
And you need Tor for your privacy, and I was like: "It's too much hard work, can't be bothered" Now, the point I would make is that there's what I should do and what I could do Now, I should set it up, and I could if I really wanted to, but I think it's much more useful just to make the point: if I'm feeling like this or others, and I know there are, because so few people do run a node, like a percentage of people who hold Bitcoin
So I was like: right, I'll just put it out there, come clean So I put out a tweet and I said: look, sure I'll get a lot of shit for this, but I don't have a node I mean, I've got one, but I've never set it up This is the reason why And obviously, I get a boatload of shit And people still troll me with that, they say: "Oh, this is from the guy who can't set up a node" I can set up a node – like, I've engineered a podcast, I set my website, I do the SEO If I really want to, I can do it
But I haven't, and these are the reasons why Let's talk about it, let's have the discussion, right? So, then I ended up getting Brian Lockhart from Casa, we made a show about it And I recently did another show with Matt, and we argued about why I didn't do it, why I don't care And I think it was one of those scenarios where we're both right He's right because I should care, I think I'm right by raising awareness of – I don't think many people are going to do this
So, a) how do you get more people; b) what does that mean? Is it dangerous for Bitcoin? And therefore we should talk about it I think we're just turning the corner now, I feel like people are starting to think: "Actually, I think Pete had a point" I've had emails coming in from people, people described in my scenario "I've got a Coldcard, do I connect it to a Electrum? I'm just a bit intimidated" Like, I think people are just scared And having that as proof now, I think it's been really helpful So I think I've turned a few, I know I've turned a few people over to appreciate what I was trying to do with that
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