Hello everyone this is adam meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to the this week in bitcoin show today is may the 29th 2020 strong hand long-term thinking bitcoin is next bitcoin unconfiscatable golden age one bitcoin equals one bitcoin okay i'm offended by selling dudes we got an all-star cast here today boris is coming in from the netherlands btc benny is in uh beautiful lovely calgary alberta canada all right so let's let's let's jump into this right now because there's been a lot of uh there's been gossip news there's been legitimate news let's start uh with btc benny uh goldman sachs said that uh bitcoin wasn't a real uh asset class now i i just want to preface this by just saying it's newsworthy okay but bitcoin really doesn't care what goldman sachs thinks of it obviously and i think we all could have predicted what goldman sa they're going to try to downplay it for as long as possible so for me it wasn't that shocking and i i don't know i don't want to put them on a pedestal bitcoin doesn't need goldman sachs's approval but take it away ben yeah i mean i i looked at at the leak of like the deck that that they were using and i mean it just reads like 2014 fud like did somebody with somebody like researched a bunch of stuff and used links from 2014 2015 and just used that whole playbook and ignored everything since that point in time like they literally there's a slide there where they compare bitcoin to the tulip mania like how many times are we gonna hear that like the tulip mania was contained within a single year and bitcoin's been around for over a decade at this point like at what point do you stop having to use that narrative i would have assumed immediately but apparently not um and yeah i don't know i just i found the whole thing to be unimportant um but also i i a little bit wonder if it's to the point where behind the scenes they're actually starting to dabble just a little bit um if it gave me flashbacks to the big short where they keep on you know they keep on saying like no no no this it's this is still rated well the the ratings agencies were all in on everything and everybody but behind the scenes they're actually buying up a bunch of you know they're actually buying up a bunch of these uh credit default swaps and until they get positioned to a point where they're okay to say oh yeah actually this is actually legitimate so like either way at some point when there is that capitulation and there's an admission of you know what this is a legitimate asset that that is probably a good thing to hold they will have already come to that conclusion far before they ever say that publicly so i don't know how far along that that line they are but at some point whatever they're saying will be lies as they're purposely in the background doing the opposite so we'll see when that happens okay good you you very rational approach to all this uh didn't change your mind about bitcoin how about you uh boris uh your thoughts on goldman downplaying bitcoin yeah it's the most horrendous thought and i agree completely with benny that this is this is straight out of 2014 2015 it's really terrible and what i find amazing i don't really believe that there's some political agenda i think they're just plain dumb there's some people who put together these kind of reports and have to do it every year and it's just someone who really doesn't understand anything about bitcoin and i mean we've seen the example even even jp morgan uh has changed their minds you know i mean even jamie dimon i mean he was the the biggest uh the biggest bitcoin hater in the world and he apparently changed his mind we've seen some reports from uh deutsche landsbank which is a german bank and they basically they took most of the work from plan b and and they used it to build a really solid investment case for bitcoin and i mean this is the kind of work i expect from a bank but i mean this stuff is i mean it's really it's it's quite pathetic to be honest it was like an intern maybe did it uh or they just they didn't wanna that's very interesting about the german bank uh i hadn't heard about that so they did some legitimate research well actually the in the beginning that just plain copied the work of uh of plan b and then plan b send them a message on twitter and actually they became quite close i believe but they uh they rectified it and put his name uh uh with the research and uh that's interesting because as some people know plan b is also quite high up in the financial world and uh the way that he um quantifies uh bitcoin's price or or value uh is i mean it's really solid it's really hard to uh to to to uh uh pull the rock under this model and um yeah actually i'm i'm i'm surprised that there's not more banks that actually picking up on it openly and using that research in their papers you know it's interesting you bring up uh plan b uh we just had the having all about uh supply and demand and this these last few days we've heard that grayscale which is gbtc barry silver whatever you want to call it is buying up more bitcoin than being produced at btc bennett you heard about this right i did uh crazy numbers actually i think they they it was what a a third more than than the block rewards subsidy like that i it's it's some insane number either way the amount of bitcoin newly minted bitcoin coming onto the market is being gobbled up more than that by a single entity and if you look at also you can side by side and and see comparisons with uh just cash chap retail investment people coming in and just buying bitcoin uh they were already taking a huge chunk of of what would have been like the block subsidy so like just between cash app and gbtc buying up bitcoin already there's a there's a definite pinch on supply and i'm i'm wondering if this time around uh we things we see things propel a little bit quicker because there was there's you know the exact same supply pinch back in 2016 uh but we did see like a post having dump and it mostly because people bought bought the rumor and sold the news uh not as much this time like in fact we're kind of peeking back up a little you know 94
95 you know back into the 9000s and everything um i'm wondering if the the panic that happened in march contributed to uh some miners that had their treasuries kind of cleared out to keep on keep on running during that time i'm i'm curious what impact that had but regardless there is a lot of demand for very very little supply and we're starting to see that now um and i've got to say like it's impressive that that bitcoin is doing how well it has and even in the face of again like the the financial fallout from everything that's going on in the world just to start to recover the the fed had to print trillions and pump it into equities markets bitcoin has more than recovered in fact like an additional what 50 on top of the where we were before the panic dump in march with no intervention from any third party bitcoin completely recovered on its own we didn't have to print a ton of money to achieve that so all around just kind of impressive and it's beginning to speak to the scarcity of this digital asset again like the most scarce asset on the planet now does so what's going on right now with uh barry silver buying up all the bitcoin and cash uh does it give you more confidence in the stock to flow um i don't know if i've ever asked you about your take on stock to flow that model yeah i mean i i think again i just a lot of it as far as the numbers go are beyond my expertise but from listening to experts that have actually gone and looked at the model and dissected it in comparison to other uh other financial assets and in comparison to things like gold it seems to hold up and it's he's done some very interesting work on on a time series model which was the original stock to flow and added some updates to that to get more accuracy and then he's got the the phase shift version which is a cross asset model which maps bitcoin and like its epochs of narratives and then puts silver and gold on that line as well and it seems to it makes a really nice perfect straight line with these clusters of of price points and so i i think there's something there now i mean models aren't meant to hold forever eventually they all break but you can potentially for a certain window of time get an idea of projecting out and and he said multiple times this is not meant to be like a a specific kind of dollar it's more like a an order of magnitude you get to kind of project out where what giant range we're going to be within in a certain epoch so you know we'll know if it holds in the next couple of years here and then it'll just be a matter of whether it holds for another having after that all right boris uh you were the one that brought up stock to flow but what what do you think about all this bitcoin being purchased by just a couple entities yeah that's that's how it goes i mean i'm not surprised at all actually what i'm find really interesting is what's happening to gold and i'm really i'm not a gold buck i don't own any gold i mean it's really it's not for me but but i follow it and i've noticed that uh especially in the netherlands there it's it's practically impossible to buy physical gold all the stores they're sold out there is weeks and weeks of waiting lists and um even if you want to buy a little bit it's not possible and that's interesting and that means that there's a lot of boomers who are trying to opt out get out of the stock market who still believe in gold and i want to get their hands on some and i'm just sitting there like hello i mean is nobody noticing bitcoin because if this is happening to golden you can't buy any gold and you can can't get out into an asset like gold it might be time to just take a look at what bitcoin can offer you and actually i think that's what's happening and um uh i'm quite skeptical about uh uh about the etfs and and uh all these companies offering sort of like bitcoin services or some some paper bitcoin product um i'm skeptical of that but if i talk to investors and i talk to people who are actually um into that scene they're all really enthusiastic about it because they say yeah i can hold bitcoin without the risk of actually owning bitcoin and you know they're afraid of storing maybe a million dollars in bitcoin and putting it on a hardware wallet under the sink i mean that's a horrible idea i can imagine if you're like if you're 60 something and you have to do that that's terrible but um the idea that they that they will use these products to actually get our get involved into the bitcoin it's fine it's okay with me i don't care as long as people start seeing it uh and and learning about it and listen about the stock to flow thing what's interesting when i was on your show for the first time we talked about this whole phase idea and we talked about how bitcoin has some economic properties and once those economic economic properties are played out it will gain political properties and we'll see a completely different bitcoin so everything and that's that's what i really love about plan b's model it's everything that's in there is something it's tough that every bitcoiner who's been been in it for a couple of years actually feels in their dna you know it's it's such beautiful stuff i mean the scarcity the digital scarcity the the uh the way it's adopted the phases in which it's adopted it's every bit corner has seen this and feels it and he just puts it on paper and puts a number on it that's brilliant that's really brilliant uh so did you have a good having talking about phases i mean we entered a new phase here yeah yeah no i i we had a we had an online party uh in the netherlands and we had like i don't know we had like 1500 people watching our our live party and it was good i mean there's lots of bitcoins in the netherlands it's good to be on the other side of the having now and uh getting ready for the the 2024 one uh you always got to be looking forward but yeah it will be interesting to see how all this stuff plays out now that i mean back in 2016 we didn't hear about you know specific entities buying up huge chunks of the new bitcoin being mined and now we are so this is this is different uh this is different so i i'm very much looking forward to seeing uh how this turns out if we're going to actually really notice this in the next few months but it the price didn't zoom up uh last time until it was seven months afterwards eight months until it was the next year so maybe it'll happen before 2021 i don't know it's it's good to be alive to even see all this stuff so i i i'm real happy about that okay pound that like button everyone we're gonna talk about the past real real fast here uh there's someone out there that's pretends to be uh satoshi nakamoto whoever this may be uh and he's got court cases he's a big uh legal dude okay he likes to get into lawsuits and uh he he people found out the the the addresses that were listed in that he claims are his uh that they were not previously uh revealed in the the trust that he made up or whatever and someone out there uh once the addresses the public addresses were revealed someone out there signed the addresses so these 11 year old addresses so one of my big takeaways from this is that yeah obviously they're not the fake guys coins okay someone else signed them i mean that that you should have known that already okay people but somebody out there has been hanging on the bitcoin for 11 years and and that dude isn't satoshi nakamoto either the person who did this signing so uh btc benny what's what are your thoughts on this situation i mean it speaks to the resolve of that person 11 well i mean however it was shortly thereafter right it was it was it was a few months months weeks it was very soon after yeah yeah so it was very very early bitcoin um and they're just sitting imagine imagine that individual sitting on that kind of money this long and and having the keys having access to them and having the resolve to not touch them now i mean of course there this individual if they have that much uh conviction around the value proposition of bitcoin they likely have bitcoin elsewhere that they got later on down the line and they've utilized those um and they're probably keeping some some of those safe but they they clearly saw an opportunity where you know they're they're not worried about they're not gonna be moving those coins or anything and they just wanted to you know stick it to a fraud uh you know they they they saw the opportunity and jumped at it but again very very impressive it speaks to the quality of people and the consistency that some some of these hard hardcore bitcoiners have in in really recognizing and being unwavering in their support of of this amazing new technology and the uh the tearing down of the old world in order to construct a new one i i love it i love that somebody just sitting around yeah i'm gonna sign this message because i don't like this guy yes that was it quite quite interesting how this all all played out and you make a good point though if he was in that early he probably uh also has some other bitcoin and some other addresses that aren't associated with those ones that maybe he could cash out already i mean i mean you got to think i mean you got that much bitcoin get your get yourself a car or something like that i mean i'm offended by selling okay but this dude i'd be i mean props to him pro pro 11 years that's amazing so i i would think that maybe he mined some afterwards and maybe he did get rid of some already and bought a car for himself who knows who knows what uh but but good that he also uh just made it so obvious that somebody was a fraud i mean now no one can argue but we're we're going to actually get into that in a second the electrum thing then we'll we'll talk about that but uh boris do you have any thoughts on that yeah what's really interesting is that there's some legal consequences to this uh to this message and that's um uh he um i don't know if you don't want to name his name on purpose but i'll call him fake fake toshi faked he um he submitted these addresses to the court and claimed that he had ownership of the keys and um the fact i mean this message proves that he doesn't that means that he committed perjury and that means that we might actually see him go to jail for lying to the court and of course we all know that he never had access to these co to these to these private keys he might have the coins on the disk but he doesn't have the uh the private key so otherwise you would have spent them uh years ago but um so this is really interesting so i i really loved how he started claiming that he sent him first he told everybody that he was hacked that was not really a good argument because why would you send a message and not just take the points uh that are uh that are on the addresses and then he said yeah i send it myself like he's gonna send a message because he has to do that because otherwise he's committed perjury so he has to say like yeah i send this message to proof that i have ownership of these private keys and that's insane i mean who would send a message uh like that about talking about himself that he's a fraud that's crazy so it's just such a beautiful ridiculous situation uh this can only happen in bitcoin euro well it's like a soap series and the other thing about it is if he signed that message with those keys that means he lied in saying that he doesn't have access to be able to move them which means he's now on the hook for like the couple billion dollars that he would owe to the the estate that is taking him to court in the first place so he's trying to ride this line of i am satoshi but i don't have this money but it's mine like it's incredible it's impossible he has to either pay up like fifty percent of of of the 11 million bitcoin or go to jail for perjury that's just that's between a rock and a hard place that's a tough situation it is great that in in with bitcoin you you can prove ownership by doing what was done and you could still remain anonymous too i mean nobody knows who this this person is so it does show some some beautiful aspects of of bitcoin now an ugly side of the space that it shows is that still still and i don't get this still some people believe that fake toshi is uh it just shows the cult mentality some people have in their head they have to follow a strong leader uh to to the very end some people still believe it and btc benny you told me that someone over at electrum say what happened here yeah so uh i was looking on twitter jamison lopp tweeted out he said fun development this week for anyone who uses electrum compatible wallets the lead maintainer of electrumx server has snapped and all future releases will be bitcoin sv only now to tag on to that um luckily some of the rockstar dev tweeted out seems electrum wallet devs are stepping up uh in to fork and do the right thing so they're gonna do a fork of electrum x server so that people can continue using bitcoin with electrum and connecting any electrum compatible wallets to it um and then in addition to that there's now a plug-in uh what's it called it's called i'm not even sure the name anyways it's it's a plug-in for electrum wallet that allows instead of running an electromag server you can just uh integrate it with bitcoin core so you can just connect it to your own node um externally and not have to run an electrum server so already there's a fork and then another solution that allows you to not even have to run electrum server um so but again yeah what you're saying as far as this cult mentality around these figureheads and it's it's funny because people always say bitcoin is a cult but it's it couldn't be further from a cult because everybody is constantly at each other's throats and is thinking so adversarially that if if i were to tweet anything tomorrow that seems like kind of not on the side of bitcoin everybody would be questioning like my facts they'd be like checking into um my actions previously checking like my consistency of narratives they'd be ch you know actually check if it was tech related they'd be checking like the code to verify what i said again bitcoiners are so in the realm of don't trust verify and push that narrative by trying to run their own nodes and and self-verify the the protocol and their utxos themselves um whereas you get into a space like bitcoin sv and you've just got this person who's like their deity and they're saying oh glorious leader tell us what to do next explain the magical ways that you've you've played 40 chess with the rest of the world like it's so ridiculous it where the mentality of don't trust verify got converted into trust this dude it's it's insane to me i don't get it yeah a good contrast right there you just made uh bars do you have any thoughts on uh uh big big egos and uh people worshiping big egos or anything yeah and maybe also big bags i can imagine this that stuff like this is driven by people's people holding large bags of altcoins uh and i can imagine i mean i've seen people stray from the path and fall into the be cash uh trap and once you're in there and maybe i don't know you're invested in it and there's no way back and it gets worse and you go from bad to worse and you buy the dip and it ends up being the top and um yeah and you end up like giving your project away to uh to bsv for no apparent reason it's it's really uh it's really a sad story um and i think time will deal with these people and uh um yeah there's just no way no way of running from the truth and we see the collapse of the altcoins and there won't be another old season nobody believes in even if it does exist or even if it will come back in some form it will be focused on retail some retail people who still want to buy it but not the institutional investors they don't really they don't trust it at all they will never put any money in something like bsv it just won't happen it's going to be bitcoin and and yeah the next battle will be with the central bank digital currencies yeah i i will say this what you just said about bsv and institutional investors of course they would not if they look at bsv as a company you would not invest in a company with a that that dude is your ceo of course and that's the way institutional investors would look at something like that obviously but i do think some of them uh they will want to diversify for the sake of diversification and uh we'll we'll see some altcoins pumped i i mean definitely a aetherium is is is loved by by by certain people so but something like bsv yeah i no i don't see how anyone in their right mind would uh that controls a lot of money would want to be in that and you bring up the bags okay and i didn't i actually didn't think about this yes if you for some reason have bags of bsv if you turned your precious bitcoin into bsv yeah i can see how you would keep the lie alive like this guy's satoshi even if you know it's not i mean because you're just trying to bail yourself out i never i never thought about that inside of it because i don't like to think about bsp very much but that's a sad uh yeah that that's a sad reality there that you probably those banks that decide to diversify if they do that are going to get wrecked like that i did a um was in 2017 mid 2017 brian kelly got on cnbc and did a a picture of a well diversified crypto portfolio and i broke it down and i did a postmortem on what happened and what what happened to your money i said if you put in 10k with this allocation um where would you be at today and in terms of dollars you would have been up like this was like at some point last year uh but in terms of dollars you would have been up you would have been at like 13k but then when we broke it down by asset it was insane you basically lost money on everything except bitcoin two coins you were just kind of break even maybe just slightly above and all of your gains came from bitcoin in fact the gains from bitcoin made up for the extreme losses that you suffered in everything else and i further broke it down and looked at the opportunity cost of not just holding bitcoin and literally by doing by doing that well diversified portfolio you lost half of your bitcoin half of your bitcoin in like a two year span uh it was insane i i remember this you did an excellent job with that because it boils down to my big saying value your wealth and freaking bitcoin all the all coin traders don't do that they say there's some guys are probably naive to this very day and say oh i did so well in dollars they don't understand if they would have held bitcoin it would have done a heck of a lot better well i'm glad we we've transitioned into all coins here because i'm gonna pop a surprise question to you guys that i don't know if you guys are even aware of uh we'll we'll start with bars uh tether in terms of market cap surpassed ripple okay it flipping ripple so it's tether has the number three market cap now in all of cryptocurrency what does that say about the space i mean to me it's just like we've got a lot of degenerate gamblers here that are just addicted to tether but and well i'm no fan of ripple or anything like that but uh any thoughts on that bars i think tether is used mainly on exchanges for people who want to exit their positions for a short while into something that resembles us dollars and then only to return back to uh bitcoin later um yeah it's a lot of it's a lot of money i really i i have no idea where the uh where the liquidity comes from but actually i there's a time when i doubted the bitfenix story and then i i spent some time looking at it and i don't really doubt it anymore i mean they they were in 2007 there were so many people buying bitcoin on bitfenix and they had to go through tether uh that's how they i mean terror didn't bump bitcoin they didn't bump bitcoin it was just people buying bitcoin with using tether and um yeah i i i assume that the same thing is still happening like clearly it's quite popular if uh they can keep on printing it or whatever they're doing and uh it surpassed uh ripple in in terms of market cap so what's your take on that uh btc benning well it's interesting because i i find that stable coins don't really if if you're trying to look at market cap which is already a terrible indicator and like dominance market dominance it's just the most ridiculous indicator ever um but if you're looking at it from that perspective i mean enough money flows into tether it could easily it could easily flip bitcoin as the number one coin because there are if when your measurement is dollars there are an infinite number of dollars and so you could easily pump 150 billion dollars into tether like that's that's a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions of dollars that have been printed out there um i'm not saying it's going to happen right away but when you're measuring in dollars you can always print more dollars and thus your market cap of your dollar denominated uh stable coin i almost used another word uh would reflect that it is worth more dollars because more dollars are sitting in it absolutely but um i i think the other interesting thing about this as to play as devil's advocate for these stable coins is um so i i uh was chatting with the guys at leaden who are based in canada but the one the co-founder mauricio is from venezuela and so they're trying to provide stuff to a lot of people in latin america and they're trying to utilize some stable coins as a way for people to flow out of their local currency via bitcoin and then get exposure to dollars because what they're it's almost like orange peeling people as they try to attain stable value through the dollar which is like the most stable of the fiat currencies um and so they're getting people in argentina for instance are trying to get out of their local currency and they now see okay well i have to get this thing called bitcoin and then i have to convert it into usdc so that i can have a stable a stable store of value in comparison to my local currency and so in the process they then get exposed to bitcoin and they they probably start to some of them at least will start to go down that rabbit hole of okay well what what is this thing why am i going through this and through comparison i think over time a lot of those people will eventually migrate to bitcoin because they understand the reason they had to flee their own currency to the dollar is the same reason that people will eventually have to flee the dollar to bitcoin is because you're going towards the most scarce digital currency digital money digital anything out there um so i mean i again a stable coin is just counterparty risk piled upon counterparty risk already like already there's no stability and you have no control over the the dollar but um then you just add in the is there enough money in the coffers to back this one to one with the already terrible fiat that's backing it so yeah double edged sword all right pound that like button all right so we're talking about we're talking about all coins there btc fanny and uh the big uh the big bad altcoin that's gonna debut one of these days libra they had a wallet called cud libra and they renamed it what did they rename it anyway i forgot and that's the thing i can't even uh i don't even know not the name already did i write it down i can't i can tell you oh it's novi no so uh do you do you care about this was it just noise uh is it good marketing on their part it's kind of just noise i mean like it was a little confusing with the libra versus calibra like i i guess i can kind of see why they changed it but i i don't know like does anybody really care about libra like it was this big scary thing and they called all these senate hearings and everything and it just beckoned to the fact that you can't haul bitcoin into the senate to question it like the elephant in the room is how irrelevant libra was and and like the fact that they were able to say i don't know about that you're not allowed to do that is why bitcoin exists so i don't know every everything to do with libra has just been like is it even gonna launch is it ever gonna well that and that's the question is it ever going to launch well this is a step toward launching they they want to rename it if they didn't think they were going to that that they trying to ease confusion they don't want people to be confused between libra and the wallet uh maybe they're trying to trick some of the senators you're saying well you hated libra now it's called something else so it's good i mean simple minds could be convinced of certain things uh but i i think uh i i think it's i think it's a positive that they're still alive now do i like all coins no i think it's going to get people into bitcoin and i think it's it's a reminder they're still out there what he wants zuckerberg there was another article about uh how this is going to make it easier for people on facebook to buy facebook products or something like that i mean they're going to have their own little closed ecosystem perhaps you know to eat teach his own i i think uh i'm no i think corporations should be able to be able to make their own uh private uh cryptocurrencies and so the world can see that no this is not this is definitely not bitcoin and that yeah they can be hauled into the senate but still i think they should be allowed to so i don't know bars do you have any any libra thoughts not really i mean i went to disneyland once and i had to buy disney dollars to actually buy some some drinks and stuff inside the park and i took one home it's a great souvenir and this is what i'm i mean i'm really relaxed or novi it lacks the souvenir vibe you know i want to bring it home and put it on the wall like like i did with my disney dollar something like that it needs something like that okay the pad the panel is not too keen on uh on libra here but they're not they're not worried about it either like you know some of the fud once libra gets rolling again we'll get some of those uh libra floodsters saying that it's gonna destroy bitcoin i know that that's a serious fun that's that's out there it's such a huge corporation they can destroy bitcoin it's central line okay we'll see but so yeah prepare yourself strong-handed people you'll get some libra hut libra flood soon enough pound that like button but i again i think it'll get people in the bitcoin so i'm not i i know bitcoin is the next bitcoin and not not libra so speaking about altcoins btc benny how many compscom that website uh you you tweeted out about that i think people should be familiar with it uh that watch this show i i've i've mentioned it before but it's becoming more obvious that uh yeah bitcoin is the real bitcoin explain that uh that site yeah so um i i tweeted out the other day uh about one of the major use cases of bitcoin and kind of why it was was created was the immutability and the finality of your transaction in the digital realm and being sure that i mean the the main issue why we couldn't have digital cash originally without a third party without a trusted third party was that you had no way of knowing um that your your money was not being double spent um you also like how how sure are you that your transaction will be reversed that's that's a big issue and with bitcoin you get transaction immutability and you get that finality of your transaction far quicker than any other digital exchange of value um you know things like paypal things your bank account accepting e-transfers and whatever other depending on where you are in the world but all those bank transfers are relatively reversible uh your credit card transactions are pretty reversible um as a merchant that's scary if you're accepting payment online a lot of the time you're on the hook for things like that uh and and you can get scammed pretty easily and so you've got to do like extensive kyc and again why we didn't have digital cash in the first place a risk to merchants as well um with bitcoin the the finality that you get with a transaction after six confirmations is is just orders of magnitude more than any other digital source and so this website how many comps c o c-o-n-f-s-com uh it maps out all of the other proof-of-work coins because proof-of-state just doesn't apply here because you can attack that infinite times at zero cost uh regardless all of the of work coins are put in order and they have bitcoin at the top saying okay six confirmations how long does that take and then for the same amount of security and transaction finality how long how many conversation confirmations would it take on all of the other proof-of-work coins ethereum is the second place and it's twice as long but as we've seen in the past that doesn't matter whatsoever because they forked the whole project anyways and moved to a new project after the dow hack anyways so really it's like it's a group of people that actually run the software and confirm everything and dictate what the protocol is and everybody else just kind of follows suit and goes with them um the next closest one and i'm not looking at it right now but the next closest one was bitcoin cash and it's 33 times slower to get the same level of transaction finality and not only that but like it would be so so easy to 51 attack bitcoin cash it's literally like the only reason it hasn't happened yet is because the miners aren't bored enough and they want their bitcoin that they're mining um and they've i mean they've added checkpoints as well which beckons to its centralization but how many comps dot com really puts into perspective the the absolute shorty that your transaction has gone through and cannot be reversed is just so much greater with bitcoin than with anything else it truly is uh the most secure settlement system on the planet all right uh boris i don't know if you have anything to add to that do you yeah i think this is so important uh especially people who are new to bitcoin they don't understand the concept that a transaction can be reversed because it doesn't happen a lot so people are used to sending i don't know bank payments from one bank account to another and it's just there the money's there and it's usually it's instant and i don't realize that it's reversible and when they see uh i don't know bitcoin in action versus different altcoins um you might be tempted to draw the conclusion that these altcoins are pretty fast the transactions just aren't that final and that's something that people that sort of concept that people have to grasp and it takes a while and that's um that's actually that's that's one of my my large frustrations with with uh explaining bitcoin again and again and again is that you have to sort of like uh understand what people understand you don't know people don't know what they don't know so websites like these are really important to grasp a simple concept which actually has a lot of consequences if you think about it all right now that i got you here i want you to uh give us your insider information on uh the netherlands if there's any any news out of the uh aml situation that you've been covering yeah actually that that law that that aml d5 is what it's called in uh in the netherlands a money laundering directive the fifth anti-money laundering directive has uh um has gone into effect uh we've seen uh quite a few bitcoin companies from the netherlands either just stop or move to other we've seen dairy bits which is next to bit max one of the largest uh trading platforms uh moved to panama i think um lots of small companies just quit uh we've also seen some altcoin projects that quit i mean maybe maybe that's a good thing i don't know but um yeah all in all it's really bad the only thing that's left is that people in the netherlands have an option to complain to the european court about the infringement the privacy infringement that's happening uh with this mld5 directive and that's um that's the only option that's left and then the privacy courts in the in brussels will look at it and hopefully tell the dutch government that they're going way too far with their kyc requirements uh but to be honest i i won't keep my hopes up this is this battle has been fought and um kyc is a thing it's here in the netherlands it's it's virtually impossible to buy bitcoin uh or actually to sell bitcoin without doing extensive kyc and it's pretty bad have you tried bisque yeah obviously that's possible and it's this it's it's up to a certain point it's decentralized and there are some companies outside of uh the netherlands that still offer uh kyc no kyc bitcoin um it's hard to find them and eventually uh they will crack down on those services as well um there's i mean the the holes in the law the gaps in the law they become smaller and smaller uh the netherlands uh well let let's contrast this with something that uh btc benny uh put out there seventy thousand bitcoin coin joined what's up with that btc benny yeah that ju that's just the month of may and that was so far just like a couple days ago um so this was a study done um it was max uh hillebrand that put it out uh or or was sharing it on twitter but it was an aggregate between uh wasabi wallet samurai wallet and join market and it showed yes 70 000 bitcoin made private via coin join this kind of a guesstimate because uh with join market it's very difficult to kind of track but he's pretty confident that numbers with wasabi and samurai are are pretty accurate um and i mean and across the board it's going up and so the other interesting thing about it is there's a significant spike in new coins being coin joined which would either indicate people that are obtaining more bitcoin and then coin joining it or new people are starting to coinjoin my guess is it's a it's a combination of the two because these technologies are getting easier to use with samurai wallet going mobile somebody working on a mobile version of wasabi as an open source project it's becoming easier for regular people to download a wallet and just hit a button and have their coins mixed for them so that they can then separate the links between them and and their bitcoin i think it's an all-around positive thing and the important thing is that if a significant number of people do this it doesn't even have to be significant but say five ten percent of people start doing stuff like this it it makes it incredibly difficult for any company to say we won't accept coin joins um we we refuse to accept because then you just taint the entire pool of coins and every every coin is tainted which i think is the goal um where you put people like chain alice's out of business yes that has definitely uh been encouraged out there taint them all baby put those dudes out of business now now i i've got another question for you in one of your tweets you said uh uh announcing a btc server grant number seven from okay coin okay coin is matching our biggest supporter to date and we'll be donating a total of a hundred thousand uh us dollars over the next 12 months uh yeah we've discussed the btc pay server uh uh previously you you had some things to say about them we were talking about it before the show yeah yeah i mean i think it's awesome that this open source project that was literally put together to spite bitpay because of their dishonest actions and the whole segwit2x debacle and their misrepresentation of how bitcoin functions uh nicholas dorier uh just just took this this as a cause of his own to build a btc pay server and create this incredible um resource for people and merchants to be able to accept bitcoin and create shops and and become a a digital merchant accepting bitcoin through whether it be on-chain or lightning now and actually now liquid as well uh but you're you're now able to accept bitcoin without the need for a trusted third party to do that for you um which is incredible and to see people rallying around uh the developers working on this software is is equally amazing like to see uh who is it that just um that just donated did you say i just erased the whole thing what was it uh yeah yeah so like they they donated um my where i work donated uh they sponsored uh cucks uh for 80 grand so i work at bitsy and they they did the the last grant to to btcp server but again it's it's just awesome to see people congregating behind people that are building incredibly useful things for the community and on the same vein of privacy btc pay server implemented uh pay to endpoint p2ep so that people can now in purchasing anything on a btc pay server merchant they create a type of coin join that is indecipherable from a regular bitcoin transaction so that the merchant actually contributes bitcoin to the transaction and nowhere in there from the resulting utxos is the actual amount of bitcoin transacted which is amazing um and it breaks all the heuristics that people like chain analysis are relying on so it's just like it just all this stuff stacks on top of each other and it's just flipping the bird to the establishment the whole way through i'm glad more anti-chain analysis stuff there very good uh boris i don't know if you have any thoughts on any of that uh yeah i think it's really important that people support bitcoin development and uh i mean there's a couple of projects uh and btc pay service absolutely one of them that uh that really i mean if you see what it is you love it you gotta love it and it works brilliantly and it's so simple and and so good um yeah i hope that the team who's working on bt pay server actually gets paid a lot i've donated myself through there for their website and i think all users should think about this i mean bitcoin needs their heroes and they also need some financial uh success for the creators so it motivates people to get into the space and uh and actually start uh contributing to bitcoin all right we got one more topic here before everybody uh talks about their own personal stories uh uh high fees crowded mempool we were hearing about it at the beginning of the week i think by the end of the week the story had changed a little bit the fees weren't as high but here's something that came out we just published the most extensive segwit batching analysis ever done going back to january 2012 until march 2020 bitcoin users could have saved over 500 million us dollars in transactional fees with a full segwit and batching implementation whoa so yeah segwit could have saved some people so some money along the way here uh we we just got through a period of a crowded mempool uh hopefully uh people will be uh i don't know why people don't use segwit addresses now but hey maybe they're gonna learn the lesson the hard way uh and we're gonna have lightning soon uh more more people using lightning soon uh btc benny what are your thoughts on the high fees that we had or on uh on what i just shared about segwit any thoughts yeah i i think it further reiterates that uh block space is scarce digital real estate and in order to get a piece of that real estate you do indeed have to pay a price for it um this is going to be a trend it will continue because transaction fees are integral to the continued security of the network as the the block subsidy gets diminished every four years something's gonna need to supplement that over time and we're going to start to see more and more that the the fees will peak up and above that of the block subsidy in terms of revenue for miners we saw a little bit of it during the last mania there were a few times where where the block reward was less than the actual fees paid a lot of that was just inefficiencies but in order to get to that point we need for that for that fee market to be fully fleshed out and fully realized people need to be using it as efficiently as possible it'll naturally happen over time but if you don't prepare yourself in advance you're going to find situations where you're paying way more than you should so i highly encourage people to number one get a wallet that supports full bec 32 addresses which means if your bitcoin address that you see on your wallet starts with a one or a three not quite good enough you're going to want to get one that starts with the bc one there may be the odd compatibility issue uh but by and large probably not and there are ways to get a three address so that it's not it's compatible regardless get a bec32 wallet and then learn about if you if you're regularly making payments learn about batching your transactions um because if you do into let's say i have to pay 10 people if i do an individual transaction every single one of those people even if i'm using a back 32 enabled wallet um that's going to be far more expensive to do that way than to say i've got this this amount of bitcoin here and i'm going to send it in a single transaction out to all these 10 people the efficiency that you gain from doing that and the amount of data that has to be added to the bitcoin blockchain is far less um and i think exchanges need to ensure that they're doing this the other thing about it as far as transaction fees go to cut down on that is how exchanges are utilized in the blockchain or if they're even on the blockchain things like liquid were specifically built for a lot of inter exchange transfer now i know liquid is not bitcoin you know it is it is a peg but if you're somebody that is a trader which again i'm not a big trader uh but if you're parking your bitcoin on an exchange you're trusting that single entity to hold your bitcoin if you're utilizing liquid then at least it's it mitigates the risk a little bit it trust minimizes it and to the point where it's a federation with with the pegged bitcoin as opposed to just a single entity holding it um and it moves all of those transactions off chain the settlement time is two minutes uh and you also have the benefit of lower fees and you have the benefit of confidential transactions so if you're moving millions of dollars into exchange you don't see traders that see publicly on the blockchain what you're doing and front run your trades so again it like i'm i'm not advocating that you go out and and gamble but at the same time if this is another efficiency that that exchanges can utilize so that scarce bitcoin block space is best utilized and we see that fee market fleshed out and and and it can while still being somewhat relatively uh reasonably priced can also subsidize the miners at the same time all right boris fees yeah i have to i have the feeling that uh most of these high fees are coming from exchanges um i know that a lot of exchanges don't want to see their uh their service desks flooded with people asking questions where their transactions are staying so uh what i'm seeing is that most of them just add a fixed fee like 50 000 sets on top of the transaction fee and just to make sure that it's that the transaction is in the next block so people basically don't have to wait it's absolutely ridiculous people should be able to choose their own speed at which they receive the transaction choose their own fee yeah i mean most transactions are from from exchanges are highly overpaid um and there's really nothing you can do especially in this completely kyc country where i live where everything that you buy on an exchange needs this 50 000 sats transaction fee it's horrible but it's it's the reality i feel like exchanges should be like every withdrawal should be a low fee rbf transaction replaced by fee right or at least give that option right and so if you have that slider of hey how quick do you want to receive your payout this is what it's going to cost you you could set it super low if it's taking too long then go back in and hit bump fee there you go then it like it it doesn't by default bump up the fees for everybody else like exchanges are really going to have to think about this because it's not sustainable the way they're doing it and and the market will force them to change absolutely all right dudes we're we're at the we're at the end of the show here so it's time for the the guys to talk about what they're doing or to say uh tell a story that got left out share some news uh we'll start with you bars yeah i got two things first of all i want to shill uh for all the european watchers uh the european version of lolly we finally have a setback service here in the netherlands it's still or not in london it's in europe you're white it's it's still in beta but it's called stackingcom and stacking is spelled s-t-e-k-k-i-n-g dot com and it allows you to get sets back from everything from aliexpress to most major european shops and i love it it's absolutely fantastic i mean i've seen all the americans like like begging about their absolutely fantastic so another thing adam i wanted to ask you when i started watching your show and i guess like five years ago someone you're always blind like on hand 20 20 vision because the 2020 having was a there was something that was like the end goal or something and i always knew like we're going to get there one day and i'm going to talk to you and i'm i'm just wondering what you're going to do are we 2024 with vision now i mean is this where we sell how do you how have you changed no no no no i always said the earliest the earliest i would possibly sell a bitcoin for fiat for a dollar uh dollars would be after the 2020 having but so we're after no i'm not selling anything i'm i i can live off of every i i've got it set up i can make it to 2024 easily what i was trying to do back in 2016 was teach people about long-term thinking they were thinking about the next day and the easiest date to point to was 2020 the having it taught them about the having also so yeah it was a darn good day to state to to to to put out there back when bitcoin was 400 and i'm like dudes it's 400 don't sell at least until after the 2020 having well if some people really planned it out that way and then sold all their bitcoin and they probably did darn well but i hope they didn't sell their bitcoin because dude 2024 strong hand people 2024 stronghold but hey so now i'm all the newbies i'm teaching them about 2024 because you got to have a long you cannot think about tomorrow think about four years from now because if you think about tomorrow you're going to make a mistake and i learned from this chart that it's going to go up 10 bucks so i better sell it and i'll buy it yeah that's not all right uh btc benny your your conclusionary thoughts yeah to tag onto what you're saying measure measure not just your your investments but also your achievements and bitcoin epochs i think is the way to go for your cycles there we go that's that's what we need to focus on but besides that i wanted to give a shout out to everybody that i've seen on my twitter feed is tweeting me pictures of nodes that they've set up because of a tutorial i made a few months back and i love it and it's just it make there's no it's probably one of the most rewarding things that i have experienced since getting into bitcoin is seeing just this flood of people that have claimed their monetary sovereignty by setting up their own bitcoin node and i'm just i'm i'm blown away by it because there's just been there's been so many of them and i like you can't see it but i've got my node running behind me i set it up using my node which is like the open source software that you can get run on a raspberry pi but it's just so cool to see people that previously thought it was difficult to run their own node and self-verify and take a bigger step into participating in the bitcoin protocol make that leap and realize it's not as difficult as they saw and so the more not everybody has to run a node but the more people that do the more robust things get and the less likely to coercion everybody is uh so again to anybody that has said hey i used your your tutorial to set up a node and send me a picture of it thank you it's i love seeing it every day and it brings a smile to my face and uh yeah keep on claiming that monetary sovereignty for yourself both of these dudes boris and benny are linked to below follow them on twitter seriously you'll get to see pictures of nodes uh value your time in havings that's another one of my uh my sayings there you're talking about people going to measure time that way of course of course value your time that way that's it dudes uh shabbat shalom everybody i hope everybody has a great weekend lots of traveling for me soon and you'll see me in new locations oh yeah get a move on in motion these dudes are in motion i'll be in physical motion still i'm adam meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister subscribe to this backup channel follow me on twitter at tech vault and uh yeah new show here every day of course conviction see you guys tomorrow thanks a lot again everyone bye-bye
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