Hello oh he's getting excited this is adam meister the bitcoin the disrupt meister welcome to the one bitcoin show today is December the 12th twelve twelve twenty nineteen strong hand holder of last resort proof of key oh this is your home a big point insider information and we've got the apex predator here he's offended by selling he is Tracy air welcome to the show you were impressed by this jitsi thing there or my guest you were I know you had a uh yeah thanks so much for having me we're gonna yeah thanks so much for having me we're gonna have some fun today tonight fifth interview of the day save the best for last dude I haven't even been live like this one but this is live people were in the chat they're very excited about this so no this is this is the only live one so yeah so we're we're gonna have some fun with it alright let me ask you a basic question before we get into into this question is a good leading question was it's gonna it's gonna open up a lot of topics now where is um how does the average how should the average Joe store Bitcoin how should the average Joseph because every time you're on the show you scare a lot of average joe's I gotta tell you when you start talking about this storage crowd protocols I want to take this out right right from the start before we get into all the proof of cheese nitty-gritty how should the average Joe store his Bitcoin you know if you have $100 a Bitcoin put $100 a thought into it but if you've got more value put more thought into it and people should be trying to learn you know and develop their human capital and their skills and their ability and so you know try to keep improving the ability that you have and storing your private keys Bitcoin core is wonderful you know Bitcoin core encrypt the wallet it's free that's gonna be pretty safe you know Bitcoin core is and branch out from there you know with Bitcoin core you're running a full node you're doing all your own validation right off the bat you're holding your own private keys you can branch out from there to using you know different cold storage methods and everything like armory there's um proof of keys we have glacier protocol and smart custody guide by Christopher Alan that people can use but yeah I mean just for the average Joe there's just sorting like get right into it with Bitcoin core like like run a full node do that then how about the hardware devices you didn't mention the hardware devices yeah well that's because I don't like using special purpose hardware devices because the people know what you're using it for so it just really I like using general-purpose computers you know and then I see you as a laptop you you know I mean I can't recommend stuff that's not the best right cuz like people might think oh I should do something that's not the best for securing the coins I mean I got a tinfoil sombrero that's huge and and you know I've just seen so many of my friends get wrecked really bad because they procrastinate it or they've been just ignorant or lazy on on how they should be storing their keys they haven't put in the work so I mean you're not gonna you're not gonna get shortcuts from me but like I mean maybe Bitcoin core and then then move out from there but yeah I mean Bitcoin serious and their consequences and when you lose those bitcoins like is painful now I want to say something about the average I mean the average Joe isn't too worried about people know he has a hardware device for a specific purpose I mean he well he should be he showed you okay he should be you're saying you should say okay there you go the average joe's well you're coming I mean think about this you're like buying a big one specific piece of hardware off of Amazon they got your shipping address you sure is penny you should buy it off your ISP your your ISP knows that you're using Bitcoin with the traffic and the ports you're connecting to treasurer or Ledger's server in order to query the balance of your bitcoins you're not even running your full node so you're trusting them to tell you you actually have bitcoins or not and you're giving them all this data that they probably turn around and sell or and and even if they don't sell it there a giant honeypot to get hacked and then a hacker knows that you you've got bitcoins and balances right so I mean it's just a bad idea in my opinion just run Bitcoin core you know at least that's gonna you know we've that's really been built to to try to minimize data leaks and privacy leaks and and everything like that and then then you can move out and use more advanced stuff like a satellite with a computer that's never touched the Internet then you've got too many of you then you're really doing it right you know not even your ISP knows that you're doing Bitcoin stuff like how cool is that Adam is trying to make people less scared and I just paid people more scared so this is a classic trace appearance all the show it starts out right away did you hear about the kinky situation that was recently they had a UH oh yeah crack it crack and showed you that's not very secure yes crack attacked the heat and keep key right you were a crack and fan yourself there – hey big investment crack and part of the reason is because they take security serious you don't take security seriously I'm you know so you need to have this adversarial way of thinking like how are people gonna steal my bitcoins you know people should be worried about that and be and and figure out how to how to secure their bitcoins in a way that they feel comfortable so that they're not happened worry about that now I want to go back to the average Joe again because I had someone I love proof of keys I love this whole thing I've been putting your little segments in my pot audio podcast everyone can listen to the audio podcast or watch here um disrupt meister comm Tommy on Twitter attack wall te CH BLT by the way traces linked to below all proof of keys but I had a guest on and I asked him about proof of keys and he's just like there are so many average Joe to like people helped her that they lose more Bitcoin by trying to send it off of the exchange and I thought about that he says you do this god of mean there has to been so much between boss from people not sending it properly sending it to a PCAST interest doing all sorts of things and he said it's been you know all these people are getting in the proof of keys for some people just better to keep it on the exchange now I don't like that but I did I did think about that a little bit it made me think and and some people were like you know what what's the educate me you've got to have an education aspect of this up program also where people know the basics where they're comfortable actually moving their Bitcoin off of these exchanges because there are a few of them that might be just they might make some huge mistakes by trying to participate in reproof of keys and I really hadn't thought about that before well first like I I don't disagree there's like an unlimited amount of stupid in the world right but I'm not aware of anybody that has tried to participate in proof of keys and has actually lost their Bitcoin I just had my seen a single tweet or comment and YouTube videos like I just haven't seen I haven't seen that I mean I would really like to know like how did somebody screw this up like how did you copy and paste the address wrong he and not be able to withdraw it you know I mean like well what's the problem here is that the user interface on the exchange like was that he would with the person wasn't attack this has happened with proof of keys before he's just saying in the history of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency he felt there been more people losing coins from sending it incorrectly or sending it to the wrong address or not knowing based on my data I mean he feel like very like where the data there was no people have was way more Bitcoin with untrust word yeah exactly people have lost way more Bitcoin with untrustworthy custodians than they've lost like sending to the wrong key or whatever I should really start small you know make you know start small start with like five dollars where the Bitcoin get comfortable with the technology like move it around you know to you don't when you're when you're there practicing and when you're doing the drill and when you're learning something you know the learnt it increment incremental e like figure out how this stuff works especially you know you learn how to do it with Bitcoin and then you can learn how to how to do it with other coins in each coin well you might have something unique to it you know and this is all part of learning how to use the technology and it's investing in yourself and developing the human capital and that's that's what proven keys is really about is you know this transfer of knowledge like figuring out how to do this stuff and you know we talked about it and it generates the discussion and then everybody is able to help everybody else like figure out how to do this but but to try and scare people and keep them ignorant and keep them a slave instead of claiming their monetary sovereignty like I think that's just you know that's a that's doing them a great disservice you know we I want people to be first-class Bitcoin citizens that have claimed their monetary sovereignty that are running full nodes holding their own private keys because that helps strengthen the Bitcoin network it decentralizes it makes it more censorship resistant you've got these economically substantive transactions being verified by full nodes that are enforcing a 21 million total Bitcoin rule for example you got people holding their private keys so you don't have a giant honeypot for government to seize or for hackers to exploit or whatever you know all of this is just you know it it's I don't know I don't see any downside to it and if people you know people have a have a bad experience because they made a mistake you know they're probably not gonna make that mistake again because there's a little painful you know and that's that's good that's part of the learning process skin in your knee you got to learn how to ride the bike yes well I think it was Alex FET ski who brought this up on my show and I think he was being contrarian to an extreme but I mean I should I should have brought him on to talk to you today maybe uh maybe he'll contact you about his uh his concerns over the whole situation I la I love it I think everyone should be talking about it you've been talk you talked about five different shows today let's see what happens if some of these exchanges actually get called out and how many more people can be educated but it's very important people educate yours there has to be a huge educational aspect to this project people need to know what they're doing oh really good because I mean one thing Bitcoin I'm sorry so I go you go you go you go well I was just gonna say bitcoins the great educator you know we did I announced proof of keys last year quadriga CX failed crypto Pia failed ouch you know hundreds of millions of dollars lost I doubt I doubt there's anybody who lost any bitcoins last year doing proof of keys and I Peter McCormick you know who runs the what Bitcoin did podcast he had half a Bitcoin on crypto Pia that he had completely forgotten about that he went and got because of proof of keys and any otherwise would have lost that you know so just doing your couch cleaning and finding bitcoins down in the cushions and getting them safe you know that that's another just incredibly important aspect of this that is an interesting story there are some old timers that maybe they they think oh I don't have any coins of exchanges I'm better than that and they forgot back in like 2013 they had something somewhere so yeah now it's time to clean those cushions that's a good idea yeah you do that you do that every year you know it's gonna be less likely that you forget and have unclaimed property yeah that is that ends up as sheeting to the state or you get you get some of these exchanges or whatnot that introduce a storage fee and so they just start taking the the Bitcoin that was forgotten there you know yeah that's why I came to do this every year you know there's you just don't want your bitcoins uh eaten away or forgotten about or lost or whatever it's and you learn a lot in the process demanding the keys prove being now since this is gonna be bigger than last year let's take talk taiko talk hypothetical here because again there was someone in my comment section the other day that said you know I don't think I'm gonna move them off I'm gonna keep him at coin base because if coinbase went down all a crypto currency would go there be no more Bitcoin or cryptocurrency now I corrected him I said that is that's out of the question I did but there's nothing that's too big to fail okay there's nothing that could bring down all of Bitcoin or cryptocurrency no single entity going away but if dude we already we already saw that with Mount GOx okay but that was going up there Huck it did and now bitcoin is a lot stronger than that too but what would happen if coinbase went down what do you think what happened coinbase went down you know that this this is interesting because I put my tweet out about proof akiza ice here in three days later coinbase makes an announcement that they're going to be testing their cold storage procedures and moving a bunch of bitcoins on chain and then they moved like 850,000 bitcoins the following week you know trying to calm everybody down like oh we really have the key the coins you know and the keys but you know if coinbase were to fail a bunch of people who have paper-based bitcoins would now realize that they don't have any Bitcoin and the who actually have Bitcoin would realize that a lot of paper coin based Bitcoin that was suppressing the price because of the increased supply of Bitcoin no longer exists and that their Bitcoin is now even more scarce so you know I think it actually being that positive for hollers of last resort who have their keys and have their coins yes daddy you know like look at quadriga TX look at crypto piya look at mount GOx Bitcoin price is way higher now than it was when we had mount docks around like bring on the failures like like destroy all of that paper Bitcoin out there buddy like you know to me that's just phenomenal you know it or you know let it let it stay there and let me keep buying real Bitcoin at the suppressed price and taking possession of it burn that you know I like to buy my Bitcoin cheap yes well we all do we all do well those who value our wealth in Bitcoin there's all sorts of other people that value their wealth and tether and they're just flipping back and forth it's it's nonsense but yes burn the paper Bitcoin now I want to talk about incentivizing people to participate in this you had a tweet that was uh I didn't think was controversial but some people like attacked you because of that I'm talking about a proof of Keyes coin may be issuing a crypto didn't I I loved it I loved it I took it to a new level I thought it may be someone's got some old altcoin they can revive it by forking it off and air dropping it to Bitcoin holders that hold their Bitcoin on January the 3rd i month ago the the proof of keys chorong idea had to have you given that idea up with it what I mean you don't have to create it I mean anyone could do it if someone if someone actually did that would you endorse or talk about it at least er what's your what's your take on proof of keys coins well I mean I mean my my experience with the four cores you know we were we were a lot we didn't know what would happen with Whitby cash being the real Bitcoin right we didn't really know what would happen but you know these Forks are they're kind of tasty especially if they have some some economic value to them you know I I don't mind them at all I think they're great and and and I also like the idea of having more species out there you know like diversity helps the ecosystem makes it more resilient and you know with a if there were some type of a proof of Keyes coin or you know some type of an airdrop or fork or whatever that that incentivize people to be holding their their own private keys off exchange I think that could exert some economic pressure on the exchanges you know because now you're creating this additional asset the problem though is there's no real way to distinguish between it being an exchange versus just the the individual holders of the Bitcoin so I mean logistically it's difficult to kind of kind of do that and I don't like creating coins just willy-nilly for the fun of it I think it would need to be to be useful it would need to be a coin that is going to be testing some type of a feature or something that you know with that we otherwise aren't testing on test net because I mean Tesla it's nice and all but there's not really economic consequence to testing on test net you know when you're able to test with economic consequences that's a lot more fun I mean I've been a big fan of a lot of the different white papers that have come out whether it's on side chains or nimble Wimble or you know their simplicity a lot of these different white papers that have come out and it'd be fun to you know be testing some of these features in an in a real economic environment and what better way to do that then you know just doing it to where Bitcoin holders get it and why not give it out on January 3rd you know cuz that's like proof akise get give it out based on a snapshot at the end of day on January 3rd and and then you know it it's not gonna harm Bitcoin holders at all because they get it for free if somebody wants to buy the thing like all the better who knows why they would want to buy maybe they want to test that feature right like what like why shouldn't we be trying to test these features especially in like live real economically substantive environments you know look at litecoin it you know every like why Quinn's been around it's done great we've been able to activate segments there first then before on Bitcoin we're able to put a million dollars into a seg would address because people were saying oh they're segment addresses aren't secure blah blah blah you know well prove it put a million dollars in a seg would address nobody stole it for like four months you know so that helps resolve the you know if you're raising a bunch of fun that like seg what addresses aren't secure but you can't go steal the million dollars that's in the seg would address like that's a bunch of BS you know so so I think there's you know there's aspects of this that I think you know if we could find some usefulness for the corn or whatever and we're able to test feature sets that we otherwise don't get a test or we're able to just play around with something that we don't otherwise get a play around with I mean there's some cool technology getting developed out there and it's fun to play around with it so I I don't understand why people are so dogmatic and don't want to play around with stuff like that's what this that's what this is about as innovation and when you innovate like you have to go through a lot of different iterations you have to go through a lot different you got to test a bunch of different ideas and so yeah and especially you know as we move into this opening up this new front in the war for monetary sovereignty you know we we had the scarcity front that's Europe in world war two and now we're opening another front in the Pacific and that's gonna be privacy anonymity fungibility and at least yeah I've been in a space for a while and I've researched a lot of the stuff and even back in 2015 I was banging the drum like we need to remove the smell from Bitcoin you know we need to really get some serious privacy stuff out there and you know there's no there's no real easy solution like with the black sighs debate the the answer was very easy but in the privacy anonymity fungibility debate the answer is not easy in fact I don't even think there's an answer out there right now so reasonable Minds can differ all over the place on what the answer is and that's great because then we get to test lots of ideas and features and and we get to do a lot of innovation and the more privacy stuff that's out there the more difficult it makes it on chain alysus companies and stuff like that to try to you know track all of this stuff raise their costs you know these are little startups that have to get funded too and they have to get they get they have to get revenue for their services so just keep raising their expenses so they're not able to provide as good a service you know they like this is a lot there's a lot to this war into this game you know and and and it's a lot of fun so yeah that's kind of my thoughts on that I love that I never thought about that aspect make more and more privacy options out there so that companies like chain analysis have to keep on hiring more and more people have to figure them out I like it I like it it's uh yeah think about it they just laid off there and people like yeah I mean I mean okay so they got a layoff thirty-nine people and meanwhile we've rolled out stuff like nimble Wimble on an extension block on litecoin and Manero put nimble Wimble into a side chain and then we got Minero with ring signatures and we got Z – and we got like all this different innovation that's going on and and yet they're short-staffed you know because they had to lay a bunch of people off so you know let's let's keep doing whatever we can to raise the cost in terms of time money humanics expertise you know the subject matter expertise keep raising the bar so that it becomes more and more difficult to even find the people to do the work right and then and then that makes it more difficult for her for anybody that's trying to engage in the the surveillance type stuff on these crypto currencies now the the privacy front in this multi-front war I like your comparison there do you think it's gonna get toxic like the the the previous debate the blocksize debate do you do you think people should take this with a different a different approach to this or can we even help what happens here oh I I mean people get toxic if they're toxic people but it's you know I don't I don't think that we're going to the the block sized war they were directly attacking our monetary sovereignty by trying to do a hard fork right they're trying to change a consensus rule definition that's a direct attack on the monetary sovereignty and you make a direct attack on that you know you're you're gonna meet resistance and so but in the privacy front you know we're we're like look some of these solutions are not gonna get rolled into Bitcoin anytime soon and some will never get rolled in ever like nimble Wimble will never get rolled into the base layer of Bitcoin this is not very feasible to do that and so you know if there's a coin that does have nimble Wimble in the base layer as a feature set why would that get toxic right I mean maybe you could get some intra coin competition you know but let the best ideas win in that case you know if if and as long as we're being honest and and what in doing science you know and and looking at this objectively and not because we are trying to show our IC o—- or something you know I I think that that we can have very productive discussions on trying to figure out how to get the best solution or solutions plural in order to have privacy and anonymity and fungibility and that's a sliding scale depending on how much of that you actually want as a user and sometimes you want a knife sometimes on a fork sometimes you want to both sometimes you you need you need an extra spoon and a plate in order to accomplish what you want to accomplish and you know the more the more utensils and the more tools that we have the better in my opinion and so you know hopefully we're all on the same team going after monetary sovereignty you know which needs scarcity which bitcoin is one that front you know and and the even Christine Lagarde is kind of seeding that point and then the other the other critical part is the the fungibility anonymity stuff you were gonna say you said the scarcity battle is over and I see direct attacks brewing for this next decade people are already saying oh we need more for miners rewards we need that there's not enough Bitcoin people got in early they were rewarded more so than late comers we need to increase the number of Bitcoin I see that as a bad attack on Bitcoin that increasing the 21 million limit and I see it I see talked of it already and I I mean in the next two years I would not be shocked if someone tries to create a 42 million Bitcoin and say it's the real Bitcoin I I see that as a something coming in the next decade also I don't yeah I mean I mean people have talked about that since since the beginning of it right but like that's not gonna happen like it any way easier to increase the block size than to increase the max number of coins I'm not saying that this is the thing the Bitcoin will remain the 21 million Bitcoin but the complainers are gonna get louder I think I think they're gonna be more and more people complaining trying and maybe they're just doing it to weaken Bitcoin in hopes because you can't change that 20 million limit you can't it won't be cheap ya know nobody nobody there are people that I mean I haven't run into anyone yeah but I I mean I haven't run into anybody that's taken seriously that that is proposing an increase in the number of bitcoins is there anyone serious they're the only seriously like what do we need what they only know I haven't seen big names yet but we never could have predicted that back in the day with a block size thing that the Bitcoin Jesus was all of a sudden going to be against Bitcoin so I mean it would only take we can't predict the next treacherous person out there but it I think it will happen I think someone will be like oh it's unfair it's unfair there were only 21 million and be up quite a public person and get behind it and it'll cause some trouble and it'll scare some people but we'll just end up with a new for a Bitcoin and it will be great for those of us who hold Bitcoin to get this 42 million Bitcoin that will just yeah well that's way about him I mean I mean that's the problem like even if someone wanted to try to do that and even if they forked it like the economic substance behind Bitcoin and and it's part of the social contract of why people buy it is because it's got that limit to it so I mean like that's just a non-starter discussion it's not going anywhere that's the reason why you know I think hardcore people buy it like me I mean it's it's so impossible for me to believe that someone who really understood Bitcoin would want that to change that mean that's what become like the Federal Reserve and just decide how we're gonna print more now because just because somebody has a YouTube channel or a Twitter account or whatever doesn't mean that their opinion matters what matters is the the economic substance that you're able to bring to this how much mining power full nodes how many bitcoins the are you haughtily you know you got to have economic substance and power in order to matter in this debate and then you've got to be able to persuade two other users you know because you can't force anybody to run your software you gotta use persuasion because they get everybody gets to run whatever software they want to run like it's like herding cats and and I mean you look at the amount of the haschke hour that's going into the Bitcoin network in the the sunk costs on all that mining equipment and then the number of full nodes that are out there I mean it's an absolute fortress a validation that's going on and those are just full nodes that have connected recently right you got hot wires that haven't even connected for years you know I'm what you got the Bitcoin toddlers are insane did you see that that article about 11 and a half million Bitcoin haven't even moved in the last 12 months yes like Bitcoin hunters are insane like they're just they're like a rock they're like a mountain like you're not moving a mountain you know like you're just the mountains just there you want to become part of the mountain like Roger ver did scoop thanks for your fork that I got to turn into more Bitcoin to make my mountain bigger why like bitcoins the mountain like the hot Wars of last resort are a mountain they're not going anywhere what you gonna do I'm writing that down now that's that's beyond strong hand the mountain the mountain it's not moving pound that like button alright we got yeah we got a question well we got a few questions here let me just before before I ask you a question can you show me that gold thing that you showed beforehand my Glock you like you like my cup you did you can't you can't drink out of a Bitcoin do you mean your your flaming gold oh there's some people that are gonna say that now there's some there's some gold bugs that's gonna be their new line you can't drink out of a Bitcoin thanks to trace you see I I am not everyone knows I'm not a fan of gold with traces and I wanted him to show his nifty cup cup out there well gold is gold as the ancient metal of kings you know gold gold is about monetary sovereignty also you know that that's the goal the purpose the aim is monetary sovereignty the means gold bitcoin you know some privacy fungibility coin you know that's the means and then the action or the result is going to be you know what we're after and so you know keep keep the eye on the prize the prize is the monetary sovereignty that's the prize it's the prize baby it keeps your eye on the prize all right now we got the question I'm gonna try to read this correctly but it's a little complicated this is from Roman q he says if we overlay the exponential reinforcement of the first six Network effects with stop the flow and credit credit contraction do you expect the seventh network of that to happen gradually or suddenly I you know there's seven billion people on this planet they're all exercising human action and and we have to keep in mind that individuals we measure in terms of days and months and perhaps years right but nation-states they measure in terms of years and decades so for a nation-state it's gonna happen all at once pretty much you know it's 20 years probably you know we first 10 years is proof of concept the next 10 years based on that stock to flow model million dollar Bitcoin you know it's gonna be it's gonna have a market cap rivaling the US dollar probably pretty soon okay yeah but for the individual you know 20 years is is a significant amount of time right for an individual it's great absolutely for the individual but it's all once in terms of like the history of humanity so yeah I mean I kind of look at it that way it takes a while for new technology to get understood and adopted and applied and bitcoins just in just in the beginning stages of that and yet look at where it's at you know 100 and 130 billion dollar market cap man it's just wild I want to ask you about that stock the flow guy the guy that makes the stock the flow charts what plan B you know him right yeah what do you think about that Jolla some people say it's blown out of proportion and people were worshipping him that you you shouldn't blindly follow it what do you think about Stockton flow his his whole chart well one the math is good you know the like it really is cointegrated now the the conclusions that we draw from cointegrated data you know multivariable cointegrated data you know we all get we all get to draw different conclusions on that what I find so fascinating about it is you know previous price history on stuff as we learnt in human action doesn't necessarily tell us what future price action is going to be because there could be changes you know the price of a water bottle could be a dollar for 10 years and then it could be $50 the next day because there was a hurricane or something okay but when we're dealing with Bitcoin its global they're not really any supply disruptions you know maybe mount GOx or Silk Road or the mining happening or whatever but not a supply disruption like you would get with a hurricane and water you know and and then we've got billions billions of transactions done by tens of millions of individuals all learning and applying their knowledge to try and make economic calculation and so that's the data that that is cointegrated so you know I make the argument with the Seven Network effects and a lot of other arguments we've got sayfudine with the Bitcoin standard so we've laid the fundamental case out and then Plan B adds you know some of the econometrics to it that helped us see and maybe learn some things from large datasets of individual economic calculation right the pricing signals that we've gotten and and maybe the just showing that that there are a lot of people that come in these waves that bat the big coin is going to become that worlders or settlement currency and it just kind of grows that way and that's what we're seeing with this cointegrated data I don't know you know it's uh but it's gonna be really interesting to find out whether the model gets falsified because it's got to be hundred thousand dollars or above sometime between now and December 31st 2021 like is the model gonna be falsified or not because falsifying a cointegrated model you know anybody who wants to dispute the model like please give me different reasoning right give me different reasoning than a supply shock from the habit again and all these fundamental network effects that are taking place and you know the infrastructure in the ecosystem and the number of people in the number of unique accounts I mean there's actually a case to be made that we could see hundred thousand dollar Bitcoin to satisfy that Co init Co integrated model but you know if you're gonna make a different case like why you know what's your reasoning like what's your model and why what's the reasoning going in behind your model and I haven't really you know it's hard to value Bitcoin it's like a dog on LSD like chasing a rabbit like nobody knows what this thing's gonna do tomorrow but you know when when we when we're looking at the Seven Network effect theses and we're looking at the Bitcoin standard you know that gives us a model for where this thing could be in 10 or 20 or 50 years right and so what's the path to get there and that's what this stock the flow model for the price from plan B is kind of showing us is it's showing us the path that we get there it's like a it's like a street and you've got your walking the dog and the dog is gonna wander all over the street you know but the street is still taking you somewhere and you're still following that Street right but the cointegration is the length of the leash on the dog as it's wandering all over the street so where's the street taking us world reserve settlement currency 7th network effect right that that's where it's taking us and the price going all over the place that's just the dog on LSD wander and wherever but it's still cointegrated with the length of the leash so we've still got these bands of where the price should be you know it should be within these bands or the model gets falsified yeah well I I am looking forward to the 2020s and I hope it doesn't get falsified but we 2021 i we've got two years let's see it I know we're one game closer to an all-time high a one interesting thing that you said a dog on LSD very interesting comparison had you ever liked Cena called on LSD that was with that one I I didn't expect coming from you there we're we're did they reality anywhere did you ever see like a video a dolphin Ellis T that must be I've seen some pretty funny videos on YouTube just don't let them lay around in the dog the dog leader on the plane today everyone's got a darn dog somebody you had a cat in the plane today but yeah okay be careful with your animals help keep the pet population nice get your pet spayed or neutered I'm Bob Barker ok so let's go to this question here can you add your in your dog your dog is not a child by the way well yeah that's a very it's not human a lot of people doing a lot of people a lot of people you know especially you know like these cities you know they think their dogs are kids guess what your your dog is not gonna your dogs I and I take care even your old not gonna come visit you in the nursing home you know well I have some time preference think about the future people going long-term that's how you tie it all in its about long term painting the people that have the kids instead of the dogs and be saved well why are you saving up coin is for my children people don't get that sometimes you know they don't want they don't want their kids to work in the future it's okay it's a good thing I I meet a lot of diving on stashing SATs I'm buying and everyday so my kids won't have to work so my kids will have a great life I think it's that's some real long-term thinking thinking beyond your own lifespan there so yeah people yeah and it's uh you know it's Sam sound money sound families you know fiat money you got a Fiat family where your kids a dog instead of a human I mean what a lonely existence you know for real we were going we're gonna be on Bitcoin here we're going beyond this is good stuff this is like a savage go how do they show people beyond Bitcoin okay we gotta get to this question this is a good question can you ask him what he thinks of Krakens proof of reserves is that sufficient with being able to shuffle coins around throw me the hard the hard ball so proof of reserves the last time that was done I think was 2014 so you know that is what it is I don't know that people should be putting much stock in proof of reserves it's five years old and they haven't done one sentence you know four and I was actually talking with Jesse about this you know it's things are a lot more complicated the security situation at Kraken is more complicated there's a lot more assets at risk you know customer assets and so they I mean they have to be bring in some serious security brainpower and everything and processes and procedures a multi signature and geographic distribution so I mean it's it's just a lot more difficult to run a proof of reserves than it was five years ago but you know we like Kraken hasn't done a proof of reserves and I'm not gonna be like Roger they're saying I read some piece of paper that said Mountain Doc's had the money like I haven't seen anything a crack in Soho like don't rely on me here's years ago cracking does cracking had plans for implementing lightning Network I don't know but they did they recently hired PR Rashard so and he's been doing a lot of Lightning Network stuff I just thought tweet he went to Visa and gave a presentation of visa today all about Lightning Network from like 9:30 till 4:00 in the afternoon I mean must been pretty serious visa must been taking it pretty serious so you know I you'd have probably have to ask him or someone else there you know on the team with deposits on like what are what's cracking an offer I mean just offering Bitcoin deposits kind of gets the job done pretty well so you know what's the incremental benefit from all the tech resources that would go into implementing lightning I don't know I think it'd be pretty cool I don't know if it's worth all the money in time something you just brought up pierre spent an entire workday talking to visa about the Lightning Network that's very interesting that's pretty big yeah and I and probably be some employees attended it right so like they're taking time out of their their data to go learn all about Lightning Network from Pierre that's pretty cool well that's that's interesting because everyone says oh the Bitcoin we'll never be able to beat the credit cards they can do like a million transactions in a second or whatever they can do and yet the credit cards want to learn about lightning Network that's that's interesting it's oh man I mean it like wow it I mean at the credit cards like man they could they could really reduce a lot of their fraud and and other other costs by rolling bit you know becoming a big when payment processor basically you know that I that could be a great solution for them and you know they'd want to partner with someone like a Kraken in order to be doing the exchanging so that there's not that exchange rate risk so I mean what we're seeing you know bitcoins had its proof of concept now people are actually taken too seriously at these biggest companies in the world and looking at ways to implement stuff and actually learn about it and everything the network effects a real man like there are a lot of hardware's out there and they might want to spend some money on coffee and they're gonna have to use lightning Network to do that because the transaction fees are are about a cup of coffee right so you know because bitcoiners can afford transaction fees now we got we on our question for you asked trace if bitcoin cash-settled derivatives are good or bad for Bitcoin I know what I mean I don't really like them but uh they are what they are and I mean at the end of the day more liquidity is better in my opinion and and okay so if they do end up suppressing the price well it's just paper Bitcoin that that they've got they don't actually have real Bitcoin and so you know if the price is suppressed I like buying my Bitcoin cheaper you know I don't really mind that you know I'll buy Bitcoin cheaper and then I'll demand possession of it so give me the real Bitcoin and not the paper Bitcoin so I don't think there's much that much to be afraid of with a Bitcoin price suppression scheme like there was with gold you know gold was just much more susceptible to censorship than Bitcoin is because the cost to run a gold full node so high but in bitcoins case you know just proof of keys demand the keys would draw your bitcoins and then you've got the real Bitcoin not the paper Bitcoin leave someone else with the paper bitcoin you know like a quadriga CX customer or a mountain ox customer you know just don't be one of them let's not value we're tying it back in the come full-circle give us some more some more information about proof of keys it's gonna be January 3rd but you give everyone a quick a little lowdown on it so we can tie everything up so it just in case people don't understand exactly what it is and where they're just think they got it all clear right now yeah well first thanks for helping support the initiative I mean it really is a public service announcement anyways we January 3rd we celebrate our monetary sovereignty proof Iggy's calm we have a little countdown clock little honey badger running off with the keys not your keys not your coins so you run your own full node you hold your own private keys it's really that simple if you want your monetary sovereignty then come and claim it you know otherwise just remain a slave it's that easy yes Wow I like that I like that and I would I would since you brought up privacy beforehand I want to I want to go back to that real quick – and again people please follow him on Twitter check out proof of keys do it note the best thing you do is spread the word and get your stuff off coinbase but I won't go back to privacy people keep talking about coin join stuff you think it's a good a good privacy practice is it sustainable uh I mean I don't know how do you know that you're not you're not coin joining with a terrorist or someone that's trying to evade sanctions and then you're then you try you know then those bitcoins you try to move them into your exchange account or whatever bad idea you know this is part of the problem with with all the smelliness – bitcoin having that immutable record that immutable blockchain it it because usually the people that want to do the coin join they they have bitcoins that have a lower value than the than the quote unquote clean Bitcoin and so they want to transfer value from the clean Bitcoin to the dirty Bitcoin you know that's that's why they want to do the coin join and so if they can find people that want a coin join for free then they're able to to get that value transferred to them right so you know what I think you're you're kind of giving up some value for free if you've got the clean Bitcoin if you've got the dirty Bitcoin then yeah I mean like you want people to get to transfer that value to you but that's you know why using coin joint on other other chains you know especially like memba Wimble implementations because all those are going to end by default you know that's another problem is is coin joining is opt-in and so not everybody is doing it and because of that like you have some problems you know it's a lot easier to to kind of find the three people that are wearing a mask instead of if everybody's wearing a mask right so you know I just don't know that it's the best idea to be coin joining you know it's it's a lot of brain damage to have your accounts shut down you know especially when they've been AM L & KY seed properly and everything it's just a bunch of brain damage and eventually you might find yourself blackballed from all the exchanges and why like why'd you do that right like what benefit did you get out of that coin joint right so was it really worth the cost and you know I I just I don't want any brain damage so you know I I like you know I got my clean bitcoins and and I'm able to move them in and out of exchanges and I've never had any problems from any of the exchange compliance officers and I pay my taxes and you know I I'm in a very defensive defensible position you know because I I don't have to explain some transaction with a who knows who right yes yes III you know I I couldn't I can't end this interview without bringing up one thing because you said this a few times every interview member Wimble you've said it at least three different times you're you impressed with that paper that that paper is amazing yeah I mean when that paper came out you know and then I watched Andrew Palestra as a presentation on it and in that crazy his presentation even now it only got 18,000 views it's like nobody's aware of this and I think it's really cool you know it's a we got scalability we got better privacy and in fungibility characteristics with it you know I think I think it's a pretty cool feature a pretty cool feature set they can get implemented and we have so much stuff you know whether it's Lightning Network or you know the zero knowledge proof Saul though I don't really like those because you know you can't have anything that risks the scarcity amount of the Bitcoin but member wendel with the way it has excess values you know we're able to contain prove that scarcity of the total number of coins so I mean it really is some cool moon math and you know we're we're opening this new front in the privacy war and I've been a big you know I've been a big advocate for privacy stuff you know even before minwell Wimble existed you know just because I'm not necessarily a fan of coin join doesn't mean I'm not a fan of privacy and fungibility it says I don't think coin joins the best way to accomplish that yeah I gotta find that video that you say only sent you say it's a great video I haven't seen it either yeah yeah mmmm bow wemble Andrew Palestra okay he he gave that it's gonna give the presentation of the San Francisco bit devs group I'm looking at hopefully it'll be linked to below alright then let me let's see if there were any other questions here before we tie it up okay no other questions everybody was very happy very good Tracy any any final words you want to say about the the project or just if the 2020s or just I mean this is so exciting we're we're entering this Golden Age decade for Bitcoin now and there's there's so much you know we couldn't predict what would happen this last decade who knows what the heck is gonna happen this next decade I'm really excited yeah I mean for real like the the 2010 were just amazing you know Bitcoin came out we took a beachhead with you know with scarcity stock to flow we got that economic substance with a hundred billion dollar plus market cap on Bitcoin you know what's the next ten years gonna be like that proof of concepts kind of over now we're moving into the 2020s we have the time the money the resources the human expertise to open an entire another front in the monetary war on privacy and fungibility and anonymity you know so we're gonna be fighting in Europe and we're gonna be fighting in the Pacific and we have the resources to do it you know freaking awesome like it's gonna be so much fun and you're just wanna you're gonna want to make sure that you hold the keys like crew those keys make sure that when you know be the be the sovereign you know be the one that gets to choose whether or not those bitcoins move not the slave asking for it to happen proof of keys calm you know like grow that grow that monetary sovereignty spine flex those muscles prove those keys all right that's a good that is a good way and did have a strong hand well thank you trace for doing this show and for providing this service for everyone spraying the word hopefully it grows every year no doubt this will be the biggest one ever because this is only the second one but it's going to keep keep on spreading the word people check it out I'll link to that and rupal Esther thing I'm gonna find that middle Wimble thing and link to it below but that's it dudes I am Adam Meister and I flew from Baltimore to Tucson today and I haven't slept very much remember found that like button that Bell button tomorrow is this week at Bitcoin JW weatherman BTC Benny and Jeet are gonna be on and a 5 pm
Eastern Time who does will atop the show you never know what will happen here it's the wild wild west over here but thanks a lot trace again and bye bye everyone see you Friday ok see ya thanks so much alright alright let me stop
